Quote from: Dumarest;992506Color me curious, Box: what would you do as a PC in a "werewolf RPG"? Are you the werewolves? If so, do you lose player agency when your character turns into a wolf? Do you just skip the next scene and the ref says, "You wake up named in the bushes covered in scrapes and bruises and someone else's blood. What do you do?" Or what? Making silver bullets and killing Larry Talbot? Or do you see some other option?

Those are the kinds of questions I want to answer. What do the PCs do? What are the rules for lycanthropy?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;992562Playing as a werewolf is a pretty specific thing to want to play. I can't imagine that the overall RPG market would support multiple games specifically for that. So, yeah, if you're not clear why being a werewolf requires you being a spirit-warrior (as others have mentioned, Forsaken doesn't have the eco-warrior subplot), and would rather focus on a more traditional fairytale werewolf, using a generic like GURPS/HERO/FATE would probably be your best bet.

I want something where werewolves can do and be anything they want to, rather than be forced into a tiny box every time. Activist, spiritualist, warlock, monster, government agent, etc. Since it seems nothing like that exists, I would have to make it myself.

I am taking a toolkit perspective here, inspired by another indie RPG that did something similar for vampires.

The first question is "What do the PCs do?" This would have to be decided by the the group. It could be eco-terrorism, spiritualism, b-horror, romance novels, government agents, paranormal investigators, alien werewolves, werewolf apocalypse, an alternate world where everyone is a werewolf unless they have an uncommon genetic condition, etc.

After deciding what the PCs will do, the second question is "What are the rules for lycanthropy?" This may be far more complex. The rules for lycanthropy should support the premise previously agreed on by the group. However, we need to agree what lycanthropy is, regardless of the premise. What makes all the different imaginable versions of lycanthropy all qualify as lycanthropy? Why play lycanthropes over superheroes?

Answer: all lycanthropes are dual entities. They transition between human and animal forms and mentalities, not necessarily wolf. The differently urges of the two sides may come into conflict, but experiencing both may feel better than either alone. A lycanthrope could be a gifted nature painter by day, but run wild through that nature by night. This would provide the basis for some manner of light/dark side mechanic, representing the balance between the lycanthrope's wild and civilized natures.

The individual benefits, weaknesses, etc of lycanthropy would form a package. A campaign could use a single package to represent that all lycanthropes follow the same rules, or multiple packages to show that lycanthropes are diverse a la Dresden Files. I am still trying to think of the questions that would apply in this case.

A obvious example would be the change itself. How does it work? Does the werewolf assume the form of a normal wolf? A human-sized wolf? Another animal? Can he assume multiple forms? Shift features on the fly? How easy/difficult is the change? What triggers the change? Are clothes shredded? Absorbed? It is limited to the full moon? Does it require wearing a wolf skin? Do they astrally project instead of physically change?

Another would be how lycanthropy is transmitted. Is it the result of a ritual, hereditary, curse, possession, pathogen or something else?

I am open to suggestion.

EDIT: I remembered that I wrote a post discussing this a couple years back. I will check GURPS Shapeshifters for more ideas.

Eden STudios Witchcraft (free) + one supplement (not) gives you werewolf rules.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;992562Playing as a werewolf is a pretty specific thing to want to play. I can't imagine that the overall RPG market would support multiple games specifically for that. So, yeah, if you're not clear why being a werewolf requires you being a spirit-warrior (as others have mentioned, Forsaken doesn't have the eco-warrior subplot), and would rather focus on a more traditional fairytale werewolf, using a generic like GURPS/HERO/FATE would probably be your best bet.

Well, I had a player once who wanted to play a were-jaguarundi. Of course I was running GURPS so I could easily oblige and make up detailed stats that would provide distinct gameplay appropriate to a were-jaguarundi . . . nonetheless, I said, "no, you may not play a were-jaguarundi, as we are starting in a setting where no even knows what a jaguarundi is, if it even exists in the entire game world, let alone a were-jaguarundi." If it had been a one-off or campaign designed to accommodate such wishes though, I might have obliged.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;992585Those are the kinds of questions I want to answer. What do the PCs do? What are the rules for lycanthropy?


I want something where werewolves can do and be anything they want to, rather than be forced into a tiny box every time. Activist, spiritualist, warlock, monster, government agent, etc. Since it seems nothing like that exists, I would have to make it myself.

I am taking a toolkit perspective here, inspired by another indie RPG that did something similar for vampires.

The first question is "What do the PCs do?" This would have to be decided by the the group. It could be eco-terrorism, spiritualism, b-horror, romance novels, government agents, paranormal investigators, alien werewolves, werewolf apocalypse, an alternate world where everyone is a werewolf unless they have an uncommon genetic condition, etc.

After deciding what the PCs will do, the second question is "What are the rules for lycanthropy?" This may be far more complex. The rules for lycanthropy should support the premise previously agreed on by the group. However, we need to agree what lycanthropy is, regardless of the premise. What makes all the different imaginable versions of lycanthropy all qualify as lycanthropy? Why play lycanthropes over superheroes?

Answer: all lycanthropes are dual entities. They transition between human and animal forms and mentalities, not necessarily wolf. The differently urges of the two sides may come into conflict, but experiencing both may feel better than either alone. A lycanthrope could be a gifted nature painter by day, but run wild through that nature by night. This would provide the basis for some manner of light/dark side mechanic, representing the balance between the lycanthrope's wild and civilized natures.

The individual benefits, weaknesses, etc of lycanthropy would form a package. A campaign could use a single package to represent that all lycanthropes follow the same rules, or multiple packages to show that lycanthropes are diverse a la Dresden Files. I am still trying to think of the questions that would apply in this case.

A obvious example would be the change itself. How does it work? Does the werewolf assume the form of a normal wolf? A human-sized wolf? Another animal? Can he assume multiple forms? Shift features on the fly? How easy/difficult is the change? What triggers the change? Are clothes shredded? Absorbed? It is limited to the full moon? Does it require wearing a wolf skin? Do they astrally project instead of physically change?

Another would be how lycanthropy is transmitted. Is it the result of a ritual, hereditary, curse, possession, pathogen or something else?

I am open to suggestion.

EDIT: I remembered that I wrote a post discussing this a couple years back. I will check GURPS Shapeshifters for more ideas.

This is the sort of thing one does as a GM (or group brainstorm) designing a campaign setting for GURPS.

Well I certainly would not hold my breath that there is, already out there and published, a were-jaguarondi-specific RPG. My point was that, although "play as the monster" in general terms is a fairly popular idea, and certainly pre-dates/is-not-exclusive-to WoD (such as Night Life, or the BECMI Creature Crucible series), an entire game (and not counting a D&D splat or GURPS sourcebook as an entire game) dedicated around that concept sounds like something that the first one to successfully enter the market would take all the people interested in that concept, and woe be the one who hates that specific game's mechanics or fluff or politics.

I'm not surprised that BoxCrayonTales found a  "indie RPG that did something similar for vampires" toolbox system. But that is undoubted printed as a reaction to Vampire, and even though Werewolf is WW's second-tier game, Vampire is still far and away more popular than Werewolf, so it doesn't surprise me that there is an indie-toolbox vampires and not one for werewolves.

Quote from: HorusArisen;992586Eden STudios Witchcraft (free) + one supplement (not) gives you werewolf rules.

I checked that out. It's clearly derivative of White Wolf, what with the "ferals" being partly spiritual, but it doesn't tie them to eco-terrorism or guardians of balance or whatever. It even explains contagious lycanthropy being the result of spiritual possession and being spread in multiple ways. What I found confusing is that ferals were originally explained to be the result of a curse, while those who contract it afterward are the result of spiritual possession. This does not seem to fit with what the books previously explained about spirits representing and rely on physical counterparts, unless it was fleshed out somewhere I did not read. In any event, I really liked how it portrayed the spirit world more in line with actual animistic beliefs rather than like D&D's planes of existence (which was how WW did things).

In the Everlasting books, we got "manitou" who were humans that chose to bind nature spirits into themselves to gain spiritual powers. They fought vaguely Lovecraftian aliens that were trying to invade the world. They tried to maintain the balance between nature and human civilization, such as through environmental activism. The demonic aliens were the biggest threat, though. More conventional viral werewolves also existed and could infect dogs and wolves (no, they didn't become wolfweres or anything like that).

Quote from: Willie the Duck;992592Well I certainly would not hold my breath that there is, already out there and published, a were-jaguarondi-specific RPG. My point was that, although "play as the monster" in general terms is a fairly popular idea, and certainly pre-dates/is-not-exclusive-to WoD (such as Night Life, or the BECMI Creature Crucible series), an entire game (and not counting a D&D splat or GURPS sourcebook as an entire game) dedicated around that concept sounds like something that the first one to successfully enter the market would take all the people interested in that concept, and woe be the one who hates that specific game's mechanics or fluff or politics.

This boggles my mind. Some respondents seriously expect me to play White Wolf's Werewolf (whatever iteration) even though it has a singularly bizarre, extremely niche premise which does not resemble the popular culture's imagination of werewolves at all (much less anything which tries to be original). If I wanted to try replicating the MTV show Teen Wolf and focus on a love affair between a recently infected werewolf and a werewolf hunter from an ancient family of werewolf hunters, I could not do that because the loogaroo/urethra/whatever cannot spread by infection, all the weird spiritual crap would get in the way, the werewolves abuse their own families, etc.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;992592I'm not surprised that BoxCrayonTales found a  "indie RPG that did something similar for vampires" toolbox system. But that is undoubted printed as a reaction to Vampire, and even though Werewolf is WW's second-tier game, Vampire is still far and away more popular than Werewolf, so it doesn't surprise me that there is an indie-toolbox vampires and not one for werewolves.

It said so in the introduction chapter. The writer had the same problems I do: the game is too niche and cannot emulate any other fiction.

All the other "werewolf" games I found on OneBookShelf had some kind of niche premise. If weird spirituality wasn't involved, then the werewolves were man-eating monsters (which you played or hunted), government paranormal investigators, or one option in a monster mash game that received little individual background. Monsterhearts implicitly used werewolves as a metaphor for overprotective boyfriends (echoing White Wolf and Stephanie Meyer making them familial abusers).

Dresden Files is the only thing that comes close, what with having five or so varieties of werewolves by default, but it's a monster mash game which doesn't have a coherent theme. Unless you make all the monsters some flavor of vampire a la Nightlife, you really can't have a coherent theme.

In many of the "Monster Mash" games it would, of course, be possible to leave out the other monsters and just focus on the werewolves.

I might offer a radical alternative here. Instead of looking for a werewolf game, especially since you say you and your table are going to collectively design werewolves specific to the campaign, look for a set of Modern era (or what ever other time period you are going to set the game in) mechanics that you like and add werewolves to that.

Use GURPS, Hero, d20, Fate, FUDGE, OneDice, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Cult, Top Secret/SI, Unisytem, Savage Worlds, whatever game mechanics you like for your base system.

There are coherent groups of werewolves in Dresden files, though.  There are the Alphas, which are a group of kids who learned the magical knack of turning into wolves who defend their neighborhood from supernatural and criminal threats.  Also there was a gang of lycanthropes (very angry people with very angry spirits inside them) who WERE a supernatural and criminal threat.  With that a Sons of Anarchy type game leaps to mind.  

Dresden Files doesn't have to be a monster mash style game.  It is set up like that because of the source material, but everybody being the same type of critter is still very in theme.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;992585Those are the kinds of questions I want to answer. What do the PCs do? What are the rules for lycanthropy?

If you want to have flexibility about the rules of lycanthropy (not the right word, but we all know what you mean) then I'd think a more generic system like GURPS, HERO, BRP/CoC/Runequest, or Dresden FATE (if your tastes run that way) is the way to go. It gives you the flexibility about what being a were/shapeshifter means.

QuoteI want something where werewolves can do and be anything they want to, rather than be forced into a tiny box every time. Activist, spiritualist, warlock, monster, government agent, etc. Since it seems nothing like that exists, I would have to make it myself.

Unless Dresden works for you (and assuming Dresden actually has different types of weres) I think you are going to do the vast majority of the lifting yourself.

QuoteThe first question is "What do the PCs do?"

Or even before that question ask "is every PC some kind of shapeshifter?" I've had exactly two players run weres in 40 years of GMing. One guy ran a werejaguar in my long ago OD&D campaign. I don't even remember why he wanted to play a werejaguar. But he was a reasonable player so I decided there must be a jungle somewhere south of the map where play took place so his character was from down there.

The second was in a pulp CoC campaign where a different player ran a werewolf. That was mostly about her learning about her situations and getting control over it and not getting offed by some hunter. Also some mystery as, at least at first, she would turn at the full moon and not clearly recall what she did. So when a dead body showed up the character was uncertain whether the murderer was actually her in wolf form or someone (or thing) else.

Quote from: Bren;992707Unless Dresden works for you (and assuming Dresden actually has different types of weres) I think you are going to do the vast majority of the lifting yourself.

DF handles multiple types of werecreatures easily enough, though there's only one flavor of werewolf playable right out of the box. That's easy enough to change with just a bit of work as the original game presents a toolkit of powers and stunts that can be assembled to tweak things so you have werewolves of different types like those that just turn into normal wolves or shifters who have multiple forms (including the common hybrid wolfman that so many games include).

And I agree. For flexibility, a more generic system would work best. Dresden could work fine, and I'd probably be tempted to use Savage Worlds for my group. But there are a lot of generic systems that would fit depending on the preferences of the players in question.

Isn't there a number of werewolf characters in superhero comics? Perhaps a supers game would do the trick.

Quote from: 3rik;992726Isn't there a number of werewolf characters in superhero comics? Perhaps a supers game would do the trick.

Sure, some even have easy rules for changing shapes. DC Heroes can do it with the "Shape Change" power or the "Alter Ego" disadvantage, depending on how you want to do it. Two shakes of a lamb's tail and your wolf is no longer in sheep's clothing.

Quote from: Dumarest;992727Sure, some even have easy rules for changing shapes. DC Heroes can do it with the "Shape Change" power or the "Alter Ego" disadvantage, depending on how you want to do it. Two shakes of a lamb's tail and your wolf is no longer in sheep's clothing.

I think you would have to rescale things though. A game that needs to accommodate the strengths of Superman and Jimmy Olson doesn't do a great job discriminating between things in a narrower band like say the strength of humans and werewolves. We might want to differentiate between an average human, an above average human, that guy at your gym who lifts the heaviest weights, a world-class weight lifter and a whole bunch of therianthropes with widely varying strengths and such, e.g. a wererat, werecat, werefox, werewolf, wereleopard, weretiger, and a werebear.

Quote from: Bren;992732I think you would have to rescale things though. A game that needs to accommodate the strengths of Superman and Jimmy Olson doesn't do a great job discriminating between things in a narrower band like say the strength of humans and werewolves. We might want to differentiate between an average human, an above average human, that guy at your gym who lifts the heaviest weights, a world-class weight lifter and a whole bunch of therianthropes with widely varying strengths and such, e.g. a wererat, werecat, werefox, werewolf, wereleopard, weretiger, and a werebear.

Maybe Supers! Revised could pull it off?

Quote from: 3rik;992726Isn't there a number of werewolf characters in superhero comics? Perhaps a supers game would do the trick.

That's why I mentioned Savage Worlds. Werewolves are easy to build in it with the Super Powers Companion.

There are also werewolves, vampires, and other things of a similar nature to be found in the Supernatural Handbook for Mutants & Masterminds 3E. I probably wouldn't use them as-is, but it gives a place to start.