Well if they understand the situation.  I guess.  

It might be the only way to re-aligne their expetations.  I am still really curious how they thought they were going to cross that field.

Quote from: DavetheLost;991756As far as I can tell their thought process is "This is a combat scene. So I draw my sword and fight"  I explained repeatedly that they were half a mile away, and the first two characters to try crossing the field were both met by agressive volleys, so it should hardly have been a surprise that the enemy would shoot at them.  Their play style seems heavilly influenced by video games or something. Just kill things, everything else will fall in your lap.

So two of them started across the field, and they were shot at, and then the whole of them just drew swords and charged into said volleys? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to say I'm doubting this, it just sounds like we're not understanding because that sounds more like a Monty Python routine than typical clueless gamers. Is this a completely new group to you?

I'm hardly an expert on modern video games, but 'everything will fall into your lap' is about the one thing that they don't do. There absolutely is a 'don't do that, you're walking into a killbox and will be picked off before you have a chance to shoot' thing going on. Now, video games might teach one that it doesn't matter because you can just respawn and try again, but it should teach 'doing that will get you killed.'

QuoteI have been taking Gronan's advice and killing them until they learn better.

If that's what they are truly like, then it sounds like a good idea. However, with this level of misplaced expectations, you might consider an after-action discussion starting with something along the lines of, "okay, let's go over this. What did you think would happen and let's figure out why this went south."

Depends on the video game. I'd expect to turn into swiss cheese crossing that field in STALKER. World of Warcraft? I'd expect the bullets to make a lot of cute pinging noises off my heater shield as I marched up and started stabbing people.

I'd guess the assumption was, if "swordsman" is a valid character concept a game where high-powered firearms are available, then the concept must have some ability to soak or weave through gunfire. Corrective killings might work, reading the rules more closely might work as well.

They mostly need to start looking for options beyond "I punch it in the face with my sword". Even "I shoot it in the face with my gun," would be a tactical step up.

They did figure out ways to get across the killing field eventually, but I never thought they would expect to be able to just walk across it with no risk.  They are young and inexperienced, but I still remember gaming when I was there age and we were never quite that green.

Quote from: DavetheLost;991756I have been taking Gronan's advice and killing them until they learn better.

All they may "learn" is that you are a killer DM and go seek a real DM.

Instead try... talking to them!

No. Really. Just say "Um gang? You are aware that it doesnt work that way right? No? Let me explain this then. Theres a span between where you are and where they are. Its gong to take X number of turns to cross and you will be under fire and likely to be wiped out with a frontal assault. Try possibly looking at alternatives? And if you keep acting stupid then its on you when I next say "Your dead. Roll new character.""

"I'll just kill their characters to teach them a lesson" is fucking stupid.

Talk first. THEN kill their characters if they keep acting stupid.

They like rolling new characters. In fact they will ask every few sessions if they can roll a new character because they are bored with the one they have. I just had one intentionally suicide charge hoping to get killed.

And I have tried talking to them. Repeatedly. They don't listen.

Okay, that's a different beast. "Don't care," is a tougher nut to crack than, "dumb" or "not thinking strategically."

Quote from: DavetheLost;992000They like rolling new characters. In fact they will ask every few sessions if they can roll a new character because they are bored with the one they have. I just had one intentionally suicide charge hoping to get killed.

And I have tried talking to them. Repeatedly. They don't listen.

A GM has a right to the fun of presenting a living, breaing world with its own coherency. It seems like they just see you as some sort of MMO server (or whatever) than a real human being who wants to enjoy social company by sharing your own creations (or at least interactions). That's a whole other talk -- and eventually putting your foot down by openly not giving them what they want, repeatedly. If they are not respecting you as a person at the table (including your words, your time, your efforts, etc.), why reward them with giving them the experience they want?

Basically, you've stated your piece, and instead of listening they try to end run you by forcing your hand. That's grounds for an open warning, denial of said passive-aggressive tactic, and preparations to fire them as a player. I've had to pull this in over half of my friendly groups, many with long-time friends. But I do it gladly and without reserve everytime.

I first expect respect. I will then ask for respect. Next I just pull the trigger on a PC's kneecap. If I have to ramp up to demanding respect, talks obviously broke down, and the not-listening is deliberate. I now need to get your attention. After that last talk we're in pulling invitations territory. If you can't hang, won't talk, and don't listen, I eject the hassle of dealing with petulant you.

Some of my friends can travel in more than one circle of my interests, others can't. Regardless, no great loss. We're expected to be adults and I'd hope to see you elsewhere being mature with me.

Quote from: Opaopajr;992021I first expect respect. I will then ask for respect. Next I just pull the trigger on a PC's kneecap. If I have to ramp up to demanding respect, talks obviously broke down, and the not-listening is deliberate. I now need to get your attention. After that last talk we're in pulling invitations territory. If you can't hang, won't talk, and don't listen, I eject the hassle of dealing with petulant you.

Some of my friends can travel in more than one circle of my interests, others can't. Regardless, no great loss. We're expected to be adults and I'd hope to see you elsewhere being mature with me.

Wear it proudly.

Quote from: Opaopajr;992021A GM has a right to the fun of presenting a living, breaing world with its own coherency. It seems like they just see you as some sort of MMO server (or whatever) than a real human being who wants to enjoy social company by sharing your own creations (or at least interactions). That's a whole other talk -- and eventually putting your foot down by openly not giving them what they want, repeatedly. If they are not respecting you as a person at the table (including your words, your time, your efforts, etc.), why reward them with giving them the experience they want?

Basically, you've stated your piece, and instead of listening they try to end run you by forcing your hand. That's grounds for an open warning, denial of said passive-aggressive tactic, and preparations to fire them as a player. I've had to pull this in over half of my friendly groups, many with long-time friends. But I do it gladly and without reserve everytime.

I first expect respect. I will then ask for respect. Next I just pull the trigger on a PC's kneecap. If I have to ramp up to demanding respect, talks obviously broke down, and the not-listening is deliberate. I now need to get your attention. After that last talk we're in pulling invitations territory. If you can't hang, won't talk, and don't listen, I eject the hassle of dealing with petulant you.

Some of my friends can travel in more than one circle of my interests, others can't. Regardless, no great loss. We're expected to be adults and I'd hope to see you elsewhere being mature with me.

Or you could just say, "guys, I'm really not interested in GMing this."

Quote from: DavetheLost;992000They like rolling new characters. In fact they will ask every few sessions if they can roll a new character because they are bored with the one they have. I just had one intentionally suicide charge hoping to get killed.

And I have tried talking to them. Repeatedly. They don't listen.

What you say is "This game is no fun for me.  I will not run a game I am not enjoying."

Different people like different things.  Sometimes the difference is so great they can't game together.  And that's perfectly all right.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;992044What you say is "This game is no fun for me.  I will not run a game I am not enjoying."

Different people like different things.  Sometimes the difference is so great they can't game together.  And that's perfectly all right.

That would be the mature, adult thing to do which would earn their respect, would it?

Quote from: Opaopajr;992021A GM has a right to the fun of presenting a living, breaing world with its own coherency. It seems like they just see you as some sort of MMO server (or whatever) than a real human being who wants to enjoy social company by sharing your own creations (or at least interactions). That's a whole other talk -- and eventually putting your foot down by openly not giving them what they want, repeatedly. If they are not respecting you as a person at the table (including your words, your time, your efforts, etc.), why reward them with giving them the experience they want?

Basically, you've stated your piece, and instead of listening they try to end run you by forcing your hand. That's grounds for an open warning, denial of said passive-aggressive tactic, and preparations to fire them as a player. I've had to pull this in over half of my friendly groups, many with long-time friends. But I do it gladly and without reserve everytime.

I first expect respect. I will then ask for respect. Next I just pull the trigger on a PC's kneecap. If I have to ramp up to demanding respect, talks obviously broke down, and the not-listening is deliberate. I now need to get your attention. After that last talk we're in pulling invitations territory. If you can't hang, won't talk, and don't listen, I eject the hassle of dealing with petulant you.

Some of my friends can travel in more than one circle of my interests, others can't. Regardless, no great loss. We're expected to be adults and I'd hope to see you elsewhere being mature with me.

What happens with those real life friendships though? Do they stop being friends with you?

Often it's hard to GM problems with real life friends because you can't just kick them out if there is a problem. Though I've had just as many friends who make it much easier because they're understanding.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;992049That would be the mature, adult thing to do which would earn their respect, would it?

It would be the mature, adult thing to do, yes.  Whether it earns their respect or not depends on them.

People who can't handle that other people have drastically different tastes, I don't want to game with anyway.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;992052What happens with those real life friendships though? Do they stop being friends with you?

Often it's hard to GM problems with real life friends because you can't just kick them out if there is a problem. Though I've had just as many friends who make it much easier because they're understanding.

Friendships can survive MUCH WORSE. Trust any adult with any sort of libido and a daring liver. Establish boundaries, cross the street away from crazy, and shrug away the bullshit that won't matter a year from now. "How to Pretend Correctly" is so far down the list it's laughable.

Deep down I think you know this too. Give your confident self a go. You might like it.