Quote from: Christopher Brady;990791Now, I'm not denying you're right, I'm saying that I don't see it in the new version.  It's too structured for FATE.  And a lot of games have Plot Points now.

Well, I haven't looked at the second edition of ICONS; it could be that they radically altered the rules so the core of it is no longer FATE...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;990791Now, I'm not denying you're right, I'm saying that I don't see it in the new version.  It's too structured for FATE.  And a lot of games have Plot Points now.

They also cite Fudge, my impression from reading both editions is it the author's original RPG using some of the mechanics and options from Fudge and Fate. Since both are toolkit RPGs, it make sense that Icons come across as own thing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;991414Well, I haven't looked at the second edition of ICONS; it could be that they radically altered the rules so the core of it is no longer FATE...

The core of Icons hasn't really changed from the 1st edition.

There differences between editions are hardly noticeable. And do not really significantly alter the play experience.

If so, then Brady is wrong.

I may be, and in my defense, I am not making an objective statement.  I'm saying that I don't see the comparison.  If I remember correctly, the Assembled core book mentions FATE as an influence, but again I simply don't see it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;992243I may be, and in my defense, I am not making an objective statement.  I'm saying that I don't see the comparison.  If I remember correctly, the Assembled core book mentions FATE as an influence, but again I simply don't see it.

Where it mostly comes in is with the Determination Point/Quality system. That's heavily influenced by Fate Points and Aspects from Fate.

The rest? Stats, damage/health system, dice mechanic, powers... practically everything else is either non-Fate in its source or only vaguely Fate-like at all. For example, you can substitute Fate dice in but it skews the probabilities a bit. It doesn't work nearly as well as several other options, and I don't even think it's listed in the AE book.

There is a section in Great Power about using the powers system with Fate Core.

So no. Icons doesn't shy away from its Fate roots one bit.

I have Icons Assembled, Icons Great Power, Icons A to Z, and Icons Adversaries. To give me the full utility and options of the system.

Quote from: Brand55;992277Where it mostly comes in is with the Determination Point/Quality system. That's heavily influenced by Fate Points and Aspects from Fate.

I suppose.  The plot points are very much like the Hero Points from Mutants and Masterminds, and Bennies from Savage Worlds.  The Qualities on the other hand, I'll grant that.  I can see a little influence, just not enough FOR ME to call it FATE like.

Quote from: Brand55;992277The rest? Stats, damage/health system, dice mechanic, powers... practically everything else is either non-Fate in its source or only vaguely Fate-like at all. For example, you can substitute Fate dice in but it skews the probabilities a bit. It doesn't work nearly as well as several other options, and I don't even think it's listed in the AE book.

No, it's not listed in the Assembled Edition.  I've got it open in front of me.

But again, I'm not saying anything objective here.

Also, I LIKE this game.  It's quick and dirty for a supers game.  If I want to run something in-depth I'll go to M&M, but something quick ICONS is my game of choice.

So, in any case, I've decided to overcome my aversion to the art used in the game (after the reasonable point made that the art in other supers games sucks too), and order a copy of Icons Assembled. I already have the PDF, but looking through it I can make use of the game - largely because of the random generation tables and the system is simple enough.

I don't think it's a Fate game for two reasons. Firstly, it doesn't market or describe itself as a Fate game. Secondly, while the rules have common roots with Fate, the differences do mark itself out as being different - fixed attributes + specialities (skills) are markedly different to Fate (even the accelerated version of the rules), the dice are D6-D6 rather than Fate dice (much more utilitarian), and the random generation is more akin to systems like FACERIP where a few rolls of the dice can generate interesting characters rather than trying to do a group chargen session as in Fate proper. If I look at Icons compared to Venture City (for Fate), I see quite different games.

In all, I prefer the approach of Icons, I think. But the art still sucks.

The dice mechanic in ICONS originated in other FATE games. Starblazer Adventures for example. The core mechanic is directly the FATE system.

Quote from: RPGPundit;993372The dice mechanic in ICONS originated in other FATE games. Starblazer Adventures for example. The core mechanic is directly the FATE system.

Well D6-D6 is also used in Feng Shui and Nexus: The Infinite City from the 90s. Fudge dice also emerged about the same time. Fate came some time later.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;993378Well D6-D6 is also used in Feng Shui and Nexus: The Infinite City from the 90s. Fudge dice also emerged about the same time. Fate came some time later.

Sure. But ICONS came out in the middle of the FATE boom when other FATE games also used the d6-d6 mechanic.

FFS, Icons has the same core mechanic as fate, it has Fate points, it has a number of other mechanical elements that are also found in FATE games. It's a fucking FATE game, people. I get that some people hate it because it did a better job of being a FATE game than the pretentious games beloved by the Swine. But trying to cover your ears and say it's just not true, that's bullshit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;994192Sure. But ICONS came out in the middle of the FATE boom when other FATE games also used the d6-d6 mechanic.

FFS, Icons has the same core mechanic as fate, it has Fate points, it has a number of other mechanical elements that are also found in FATE games. It's a fucking FATE game, people. I get that some people hate it because it did a better job of being a FATE game than the pretentious games beloved by the Swine. But trying to cover your ears and say it's just not true, that's bullshit.

Revolving argument, this. Sure, it's got Fate bits in it. It's also got other bits in it and it lacks any self-identification, in terms of marketing, towards the Fate brand.

And I didn't even need to say fuck.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;994205Revolving argument, this. Sure, it's got Fate bits in it. It's also got other bits in it and it lacks any self-identification, in terms of marketing, towards the Fate brand.

And I didn't even need to say fuck.

Man, is it painful to agree with Pundit, but I think he's basically right. ICONS may not be 100% FATE, but it's certainly in the family. It felt that way to me, at least.

It's funny how all the people that desperately argue it's not FATE are fans of the most pretentious FATE games. All the shitty ones.