Quote from: fearsomepirate;990037Players don't spend a lot of time thinking about options when the game doesn't provide many, or the game's rules don't severely punish them for choosing "bad" options. This doesn't mean they're better players; it' means they're not playing the same game.

A Fighter with these stats in AD&D can be pretty interesting:
9 STR/12 DEX/11 CON/15 INT/7 WIS/17 CHA

Those stats are fucking garbage in 5e. And it's not because the players are different or all a bunch of munchkin min-maxers or the DMs are douchebags, it's because the rules don't provide Fighters with useful things to do with high INT or CHA, and kick him in the balls for not having high STR, DEX, or CON (in terms of the game's design, 9 STR for a 5e Fighter is like having an AD&D fighter with 3 STR, which isn't even legal). It's really that simple. You don't spend time thinking about "builds" when there is nothing to "build" and/or your "build" doesn't matter much.

Yeah, but I wanna be an archetypical fey-pact warlock modeled on all those famous fey-pact warlocks from various mythologies and literature.

Quote from: ffilz;990069Yea, seriously... If I was playing in an OD&D campaign that used my house rules/clarifications, which is straight 3d6 down the line for stats, I'd seriously consider playing those stats as a Paladin. If he can manage to get one more point of Str somewhere, he would get a +5% XP bonus (the Int 15 gives him 3 more points of Str from the perspective of XP bonus, to a 12 with 13 needed for +5%), but that 17 in Cha is gold. In all my OD&D play since 2006, I've only seen 5 or 6 Cha 17+, and one of those was on a sheet of about 20-30 stats I rolled up as potential henchmen.

Frank

I'd play that as a Paladin in a minute XP bonus or no.  In 44 years I've only had 2 Paladins rolled up in my campaign.  Considering how bloody powerful they are even at low level, that's a good thing.

Quote from: Lunamancer;990076There is a certain irony that a later, supposedly more refined version of the game, with tons more options and widgets, where there was more of a conscious effort to "balance" things is so terrible at providing a variety of viable options.

No one said you can't play a Fighter with those stat in any edition of D&D. You're not as likely to hit monsters, true, but there are other ways of coming up with viable options that can make up some of the difference. In 3e there's always feats like Weapon Finesse that utilize your slightly higher Dexterity score for some weapons. So a 1st level Fighter with 9 STR/12 DEX/11 CON/15 INT/7 WIS/17 CHA is still getting a +2 to hit or +3 if he also takes Weapon Focus (rapier) and deals 1d6-1. With Scale and a shield this characater's AC is still 17 (though I'd probably go with a bow) and he'll have a lot more Skill points. Heck you could also take feats like Intimidating Strike and utilize some of that extra Charisma in combat.

In 4e I wouldn't use these for a Fighter but it could make for a serviceable Warlord. Commander's Strike is simply using your action to give an ally a free attack with your Intelligence modifier as extra damage (basically pointing out an enemy's flaw or opening). Lots of Warlords in 4e didn't put much into Strength because there were abilities that basically just gave other people your attacks. Then there are Skills and even Skill powers that would go nicely with a higher Intelligence or Charisma score too.

In 5e, again I'd either go with a Bow or use Finesse weapons (you don't even take a penalty on damage rolls like you do in 3E) and you're still good to go at 1st level with +3 to attack rolls. AC is still decent with Scale and a shield with a solid AC 17 and since most of the rolls are Ability checks AND you can grab skills from a wide variety of backgrounds, a Fighter with the Sage or Entertainer background will really utilize their Intelligence and Charisma scores.

Quote from: Dumarest;990082Yeah, but I wanna be an archetypical fey-pact warlock modeled on all those famous fey-pact warlocks from various mythologies and literature.

Amazingly I was somehow still able (despite the name's lack of pedigree) to take advantage of centuries of fairy lore and fairy tales and changeling-stories and use them as inspiration for the gets-his-magic-from-the-fairies warlock I played in my one 5E experience.

Also, that stat array? Would make an awesome Lazy Warlord in 4E.

Quote from: Vargold;990093Amazingly I was somehow still able (despite the name's lack of pedigree) to take advantage of centuries of fairy lore and fairy tales and changeling-stories and use them as inspiration for the gets-his-magic-from-the-fairies warlock I played in my one 5E experience.

Also, that stat array? Would make an awesome Lazy Warlord in 4E.

Love me some Lazy-Lords! Great concept and a lot of fun to play.

Quote from: Batman;990095Love me some Lazy-Lords! Great concept and a lot of fun to play.

Eilonwy, Daughter of Angharad, is definitely a Lazy Warlord.

Quote from: Vargold;990096Eilonwy, Daughter of Angharad, is definitely a Lazy Warlord.

I've, unfortunately, never seen Disney's Black Cauldron. Though after reading a bit about her, she seems like a feisty princess which works well with the Lazy Warlord concept. :-)

Quote from: Batman;990103I've, unfortunately, never seen Disney's Black Cauldron. Though after reading a bit about her, she seems like a feisty princess which works well with the Lazy Warlord concept. :-)

She might have to do some sort of multi-class or hybrid-class with Wizard, but she's a total Lazy-Lord: "Pig-Boy, take care of this for me, will you?"

9 STR/12 DEX/11 CON in AD&D means (among other things):
* No attack/damage adjustment
* 500 cn carry weight
* No hp adjustment
* No defensive adjustment

A typical 1e fighter's hit and damage adjustment runs between 0 and +1 at 1st level. This covers the STR range from 9 to 17. You might get really lucky, but if you got more than that, it was really lucky.

A typical 5e fighter's hit and damage adjustment runs between +2 and +3 at first level. This covers the STR range from 14 to 17.

See the difference? The adjustment range is the same, but the base the game is designed around is +2, not +0, and the adjustment range covers a much smaller range of ability scores. This is why the "build" matters. A fighter with 11 STR is fucked. He's got an effective -2 penalty to attack and damage relative to the baseline, which in AD&D is like trying to swordfight with 4 STR.

Quote from: Batman;990095Love me some Lazy-Lords! Great concept and a lot of fun to play.

The day I finally understood what a warlord was for was a great day.

Quote from: Dumarest;989745I find it amusing that a "fey-pact  warlock" is supposed to be an archetype. I don't even know what that means. At least "beastmaster ranger" seems clear:   a Marc Singer wannabe. Does he summon a Tanya Roberts sidekick at a certain level?

Prospero from the Tempest.

Quote from: Dumarest;989765Could be, but not as a "fey-pact warlock." I think we can acknowledge how silly the name is.

This is why players should never ever be allowed to make up nicknames or please god no, terms, for anything. EVER. And thats not even the most stupid of them.

Fey-pact-warlock is really just shorthand for a 5e Warlock with a Fey patron. Probably pact of the chain as otherwise theyd call it something else. And no. Its not an archetype. Its just a path someone might take out of several. Ive been playing what Id guess theyd term an Old One-blade-Warlock.

Fey-pact warlock? One-blade warlock? In 5e?

I suddenly feel like an elderly person struggling to use a smartphone.

Quote from: Batman;990103I've, unfortunately, never seen Disney's Black Cauldron. Though after reading a bit about her, she seems like a feisty princess which works well with the Lazy Warlord concept. :-)

Or dear Lord, read the books! They are quick and go down easy.  Eilonwy is the basis for the "Nobleman's Wild Daughter" playbook in Beyond the Wall.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;990206Fey-pact warlock? One-blade warlock? In 5e?

I suddenly feel like an elderly person struggling to use a smartphone.

And people wonder why I say I don't even recognize 5e as D&D.

Quote from: Dumarest;990082Yeah, but I wanna be an archetypical fey-pact warlock modeled on all those famous fey-pact warlocks from various mythologies and literature.

  I'll see your complaints about the fey warlock (someone gifted with sorcery by the Good People) and raise you the tremendously archetypal and mythically grounded figure of the cleric.