Quote from: estar;986363I am not arguing that the players should be stopped from spending his gold. To clear I am pointing out how the player even going to get the opportunity to spend any money on slaves given what has been posted about the circumstance?

In such circumstances, I'm a firm believer of playing out the shopping trip;).

Quote from: AsenRG;986365In such circumstances, I'm a firm believer of playing out the shopping trip;).

IC your point, I had plenty of players do nonsensical stuff and I went along for the ride. For example a player who was playing a goofy barbarian had enough to put an enchantment on his sword. It would take them a day to do so and he was told to come back tomorrow to pick up the sword. The player elected to stand outside of the store until it was done. The situation literally was just that, standing outside on a main throughfare throughout the day and night.

Now while my campaign has it goofy moments it leans more to the Game of Thrones side of seriousness than not. I rolled up a series of random encounter to see what happens. The day and most of the night went without incident, he ignored people and people ignored him. That is until late at night i rolled a mugging attempt. Of course the character is without his main weapon and as luck had it the mugger was of comparable levels (3rd). The barbarian won but got the shit kicked out of him in the process and the rest of the table was laughing their ass off at the situation. Miffed the player went "fine, I head back to the inn."

I warned him about the possibilities. That I will go with whatever the dice came up with it. And prior to that there were encounters that moments that I roleplayed for laughs.  But then came the mugging attempt roll.

Proof I haven't been here for quite some time.  Mod red warnings rpgnet style.  Weird  oh well  Anyway, I don't think the thread needs to be restricted to historical examples. Actually, it would probably be better if they were not, if there are the warnings here now and all.

Quote from: Kuroth;986373Proof I haven't been here for quite some time.  Mod red warnings rpgnet style.  Weird  oh well  Anyway, I don't think the thread needs to be restricted to historical examples. Actually, it would probably be better if they were not, if there are the warnings here now and all.

I post extensively and was recently made a moderator. So I want to be clear when I speak as a moderator and when I am just speaking as Rob Conley. As for why I moderated in the first place, there is a lot of political controversy in the US at the moment. Thread can derailed easily when they touch on this. However this site prize free speech with only few limits. So this can be discussed just in the part of the forum devoted to that type of discussion. So that in this thread the topic remain RPG related.

As for history being touchy, it always been touchy. On this site if you feel that somebody is being a dick about a topic then don't hold back and say so. Let the author have both guns if that your feeling. If it gets to be a extended exchange beyond the scope of the original thread, then be polite and make a new one here if RPG related or in the Pundit forum if it not. Just use your common sense.  If a poster lacks any than he shall be mocked but that about the extent of it unless he violates one of the few lines we do have like sockpuppetry, terroristics threats, etc.

In the end our actions speak louder than our words so just do search on any of the moderators posting and see for yourself what we been doing.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;985791Here's my rough calculation.

The 5e PHB puts the value of an unskilled laborer at 2 silver pieces a day. So a year's worth of work from them is 730 silver pieces, or 73 gold pieces. I'll increase the price by 25% because of the trouble of capturing and delivering the slave, so that's roughly 90 gp total.

A slave can be expected to work 30 years or so, so multiply by 30 = 2,700 gp.

However, slavery is illegal in Neverwinter, which is where I need this for. A vial of poison in the PHB is 100gp instead of the 50gp you would expect because it's illegal. Therefore I double the slave price to 5,400 gp.

Hmm...

I'm not sure 30 years of work is all that accurate. Also not sure that 2 sp per day equates to work each and every single day. So these are a couple of assumptions you can adjust downward if you feel the final total is crazy high.

But for now I'll get right into it using your assumptions. Everything that follows is based on Richard Cantillon's essay. As he lived in a pre-industrial time, actually put his theories into practice in business, and profited as a result, I can think of no better source. While he does mention some contemporary pricing, the essay mainly teaches how to reason through questions such as these (this is how he knew if the going price of something was too low or too high).

Some other things to consider:

1) While the value of the slave is linked to the product of its future labor, what really matters is the product of labor minus upkeep of the slave. If a slave's labor barely kept the slave clothed, fed, housed, and otherwise cared for, this would be of little to know value to the owner, and the slave would have little to no market value.
2) What must be considered is the present value of future production. Meaning if a slave produces X from now until he's no longer productive, the market value of the slave is going to be a substantial amount less than X.
3) In general (without getting into individual stats or anything like that) a slave is less productive than a free man. The value of a typical freeman's labor is about 6 times what he consumes. One third of this is paid to him in his wages. The remaining 2 thirds go to his employer, a risk-bearing margin, upkeep on tools and land, paying the rent or "mortgage" on the land if applicable, providing protection for the land, taxes, etc. So the production of a slave will be greater than 1x what they consume but less than 6x. Typically 2-4x depending on quality. Or 3x if you want to go down the middle.
4) Of the 3x, 1x will go to the slave's upkeep, as mentioned. 1x will be a risk-bearing sum--when you consider that it's possible a slave could die early or become crippled long or otherwise just not deliver on the expectation of how much production he will provide, his market value today will therefore be somewhat less than the ultimate value he provides on average. The final 1x can be reasonably assumed for calculation purposes.

So if the average laborer be paid 73 gp per year, then the actual produce of his labor be triple that (219). The slave's production is about half that (109.5) and then that is cut to one-third again once risk and upkeep are subtracted out (36.5).

Land at the time was generally valued at 22-30 times annual yield, and land is not as fragile or as perishable as a slave. For a slave, based on the life you're assuming you'll get out of it, you're talking about a multiplier around 16x to 19x, for a range of 584 to 693.5. This is the typical range of what someone would be willing to pay for a slave given all your assumptions. The purchaser doesn't care about the trouble of capturing or a delivering a slave. That's on the seller to find a way to make profitable at the price the buyer is willing to pay. If the troubles be minimal making the slave trade highly profitable, the impact would be many slaves which may reduce the price of slaves. But there's a practical upper limit to how much the price of a slave can rise due to short supply, beyond that only those with a special purpose (including extreme novelty or luxury) would support a higher price, those able to afford to pay luxury pricing will be rare, so the price can only rise so high if slaves become in extremely short supply. These are all extenuating circumstances that you should consider given the details of your campaign and the state of flux. But for a generic answer to a generic question, you should stick with 600-650 gp for an average slave, 300-1000 gp for the range of quality.

Now going through all the same calculations only using what I consider are more reasonable assumptions as to the amount of work you'll get out of a slave, I'm thinking a price of 300-350 gp for an average slave, 150-500 gp for the range of quality.

Slaves for pleasure are another matter entirely. As a luxury, the quantity demanded of them will be low. Even if you imagine a common working man desperate because he can't get a wife, he produces double what he consumes, he would have to spend the other half just on a pleasure slave's upkeep leaving nothing in the till for the auctioneer. So below a certain quality, the value of a pleasure slave drops to less than worthless. At the highest end of the scale, though, the prices could be exorbitant because you're talking about what someone as wealthy as a king or emperor would be willing to pay.

Thanks for the input Lunamancer.

Quote from: estar;986363I am not arguing that the players should be stopped from spending his gold. To clear I am pointing out how the player even going to get the opportunity to spend any money on slaves given what has been posted about the circumstance?

Seriously is he standing in the streets of Neverwinter, going "Hey I want to buy a slave got some for a sale?" Where does the player thing he can find slaves to buy in the first place? The answer to which will allow for better advice for what the price should be.

He is a member of the Cult of Asmodeus, which has a hidden underground cult in Neverwinter. He wants to use the cult's network to be able to acquire one.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;986399He is a member of the Cult of Asmodeus, which has a hidden underground cult in Neverwinter. He wants to use the cult's network to be able to acquire one.

Ah, that clarify things. So basically this is a situation where people are held against their will by a criminal (in Neverwinter eyes) organization. There wouldn't be a traditional market where you just go an buy a slave. Likely the slaves are held in common to support the cult. There will be cultists who feel ownership over certain groups and and individual slaves because of their position and authority. It wouldn't be like in Rome or medieval Europe where slave is considered a form of property to be bought and sold.

To get a slave in this situation the character would have to know somebody in the cult. And the cultist (or cult as a whole) will have to feel there is a good reason for the character to have a personal slave as opposed to the slave working for the good of the cult. Any gold exchanged will be more like a bride. And that will be weighed against the shit the cult had to do to obtain a replacement and train/break them. Remember this is a underground cult living on the edge. It not like they will have a ton of resource to throw around for any particular thing.

Finally, the cult will not want to be revealed. So likely they will be various cautious about the PC's intention for the slave. They will consider it folly if the PCs was to leave and try to use the slave in the role of a servant or porter. The moment they leave the underground complex they will try to run. Unless the cult has some leverage on the individual like power over their family. In which case the individual can be broken to remain quiet even when they could escape.

So the answer it is possible for the player to obtain a slave, but it will be a challenge that involves more than outlay of gold. As for the amount of gold for say an ordinary laborer I would go with 100 gp as a starting point. Double for what the slave would fetch on a market in a society that has open slavery. Then modify the price as I suggested for extraordinary attributes and skills. Again the big problem is convincing the cult or something to make the sale in the first place.

Quote from: Spike;986347Well... get out of here, you're embarrassing me!

....

Quote from: Headless;986360The best thing that ever happened to America was the Indians refused to be slaves.  Before the English imported black slaves, they imported more English.  And then the working English were able to negotiate a better deal and eventually a democracy.

Are you kidding me? Native Americans were taking slaves well before the Europeans arrived. And were selling people off as slaves once the Europeans arrived. Often doing what other countries were. Which is get rid of your enemy for profit. Some also did indeed end up as slaves on plantations.

Some native americans dealt in slaves, others didn't. Can't generalize as it is very specific to the 'tribe' or nation.

With the constant derailing I suspect this thread is doomed to being locked or shuffled off to the purgatory of Pundency.

Where slavery is legal a strong slave will cost more because more productive, but for this cult a strong slave would be harder to keep imprisoned so cheaper.

I would probably have them charge whatever the PC will pay, probably hundreds of gp.

Mongoose's Slaine, based on a graphic novel with a Celtic feel, has Cumal (Female Slave) as a unit of currency. So, one slave girl costs one Cumal.

Quote from: soltakss;986631Mongoose's Slaine, based on a graphic novel with a Celtic feel, has Cumal (Female Slave) as a unit of currency. So, one slave girl costs one Cumal.

Well, that's one solution, though making change would be hellish.

Quote from: Doom;986633Well, that's one solution, though making change would be hellish.

If 10 horses cost 5 Cumal, then 5 horses cost 2 Cumal and a young slave girl, or perhaps 2 Cumal and a slave boy, or perhaps 2 Cumal and a dwarf Cumal.

Quote from: soltakss;986631Mongoose's Slaine, based on a graphic novel with a Celtic feel, has Cumal (Female Slave) as a unit of currency. So, one slave girl costs one Cumal.

I think that is ratcheting up the ick factor.