Quote from: Madprofessor;978732The Doom mechanic, in one stroke, pits the GM in an adversarial role against the players while giving the the players the power to decide how much power the GM has. The whole game has a Karmic cosmic balance kind of feel in that the characters can accomplish almost anything they want by manipulating the cosmic economy, but the consequence is that they unleash the GM to screw with them in doing so.  So you have this feel of "my success will bring trouble or suffering later" - and that just has nothing to do with Howard.

"Their chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune!"
-- Conan, "Queen of the Black Coast"

"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

"As an avalanche sweeps onward, gathering bulk and momentum, I will sweep into the lands of mine ancient enemies."
-- Natohk the Veiled One, "Black Colossus"

Doom, momentum, and fortune... used in the context we use them in the rules.

People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978732He's the line developer, not the game designer. He is a fantastic writer who "gets it," and who gets Conan, and he's a hell of good guy to boot. He came here to the RPGsite and debated 2d20 Conan mechanics with us for days.  But the game was already designed by Jay Little for Mutant Chronicles and his hands are tied.  I have no doubt that Jason, Jeff, and a whole stable of artists and writers will deliver some great material - but the game still sucks.

As I've said before, Jay's design input was minimal. I'm not dissing him... it's just that in two years of managing this line and six months of being involved prior, I've never spoken to him, haven't seen his name on an email, haven't had anyone refer to him.

Nathan Dowdell and Benn Graybeaton are the primary designers of note for the 2d20 system, and both are actively involved with Modiphius. I communicate with Benn on a near-daily basis about design issues (and yes, I have influence), though Nathan is focusing on Star Trek.  

Another huge influence was Michal Cross' Drifting Through Space. Check it out. It's free. You'll see the base of the system there.

And thanks for the kind words!

Got to say Jasonthat personally I think the game looks great. The setting material is being thoroughly mined for my Mythras  game and I like the look of the mechanics  so hope to run the game itself in the not too distant future.

Quote from: Jason D;980800"Their chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune!"
-- Conan, "Queen of the Black Coast"

"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

"As an avalanche sweeps onward, gathering bulk and momentum, I will sweep into the lands of mine ancient enemies."
-- Natohk the Veiled One, "Black Colossus"

Doom, momentum, and fortune... used in the context we use them in the rules.

People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

Pretty unfair to use sources and facts in discussion on RPGSite.

Personally I never could get the "using Fate points or Doom or some other abstract thing breaks my immersion" argument. If thats the case then a glance at your character sheet, looking up a modifier or rolling dice would seem to have the same effect. Now thats just my opinion, I know many feel differently. None of that sort of thing breaks the level of immersion I typically play in and Ive always considered myself and the games I run pretty 'deep' where that immersion is concerned. I suppose its another 'to each their own' thing. I personally find miniatures destroy immersion while others cant play without them.

Quote from: Jason D;980800"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

So this 'Doom' mechanic in the game represents the PC making deals with gods? Kind of like Clerics in DCC and their 'Disapproval' rating that can come back and bit them in the ass if they overdo it?

Quote from: Simlasa;980886So this 'Doom' mechanic in the game represents the PC making deals with gods? Kind of like Clerics in DCC and their 'Disapproval' rating that can come back and bit them in the ass if they overdo it?

That's the thing: not really.  It could represent that, but it's unlimited, nearly every 2d20 roll you make is open to the choice of whether to add 1-3 more 2d20 or not.  So a game in which you try to link it to something associated in the game becomes a little weird if you can bust out herculean effort or invoke the name of Crom every time you do something.  It's you the player deciding this is where your character "Pulls a Conan" and does something great, knowing that the GM will then at some point "Pull a Howard" and throw those dice back at you.

They *could* have customized the system further and somehow associated the choice to buy dice and give the GM Doom to something in the Conan setting or about the Conan players, but they did not.  The conceit of the game is your characters are characters in a Howard story and you and the GM have these tools to ratchet up the action, tension and pulpiness if you so choose.

In practice, some of my players found it not as OOC as it sounds and simply policed themselves, only adding dice when they were really pissed or really desperate and filed it away under "kinda like Luck points".  Others felt the constant choice distracting.  One of them tried to get into the Storytelling aspect of it, but then the mook rules and range bands yanked him into skirmish wargame mindset, so oddly enough, the narrative player I have had the biggest problem with the rules as written.  I flushed mooks and range bands after the first adventure though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;980935The conceit of the game is your characters are characters in a Howard story...

Except that there is no such conceit. But by all means, continue.

I am in a quandary about the Conan RPG. The mechanics look like such a mixed bag and the reviews have not been making me feel any better, but Jason D is a great representative for Modiphius and his take on aspects of the game sound good and make sense. It may wind up being one of those games I prefer to play than run. I have to join in a FLGS or convention demo and see how it feels. Same with Star Trek.

Quote from: Jason D;980966Except that there is no such conceit. But by all means, continue.

The choosing to buy dice is something tied directly to something the character is doing to increase their chances, or not.  If not, then it's OOC, and the player is doing it because they want the character to do well, overperform, etc.  They're exercising narrative control.

Nathan Dowdell has stated one of the main influences on his design ideas was the Cortex system.  Ben calls the various metagame currencies "narrativium".  They've both talked about how the ebb and flow of the currency is designed to mimic the ebb and flow of action and plot in a Howard Story.

What In-Setting conceit do the settings of The Hyborian Age, Barsoom, Mutant Chronicles, Star Trek, and Infinity all share (since they use the same tweaked system) that allows them to all have the same Buying Dice mechanic with a different name?

Face it, from a game design perspective, the Buying Dice/Doom mechanic RAW is an OOC narrative control mechanic.

Some players, that won't change how they play at all, just some more Luck Point thingies.
Other players, that will be a barrier to immersion.
Other players, will love the narrative control and eat it up.

Whether or not it bothers someone, doesn't change what it is.  If someone never thinks about whether they are making this decision IC or OOC, and doesn't care one way or the other, it doesn't change whether the decision is IC or OOC.

Quote from: Jason D;980800People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

You're right, the Mitra/Set duality is there just as much as the Mythos intersection.

Our group has done one 'test drive' so far, and it will be added to our regular rotation in the future.

Pros
- Less 'currency' to keep track of than D&D 5E. You have Fortune points, Doom and Momentum versus Bardic Inspiration Dice, Supremacy Dice and all the other class specific 'narrative currency' therein.
- Reach matters. Engage a Pikeman when you have a dagger? It will be difficult unless you either break Guard or surprise him when he doesn't have it at which point your dagger
has a good chance of ending things rather quickly.
- Melee , Ranged and Morale attacks all have their place. Archers, while deadly , typically have a brief time to shine in a fight unless protected from Melee engagement.
- Sorcery is extremely rare and seems to be as dangerous to its practitioners as it is to their enemies.

Cons
- Zone use takes some getting used to, but I can see that it lends itself well to fairly large scale battles.
- Deadly. This is a pro and a con, but as a GM (largely due to being new to the system) the tipping point between cakewalk and TPK seems a bit narrow.

Overall we had a blast and are quite happy with it so far.

Quote from: Jason D;980800And thanks for the kind words!

Well, I try to call it as I see it Besides your fantastic resume' of RPG work, which has provided me, my friends and my family with a great deal of enjoyment, you have also put up with rant after rant from me on your current project, and you still find the patience to respond to me with measured grace.

So with much respect:

The doom/momentum mechanics, that forms the overarching structure of the system, are narrative control OOC mechanics that force players to make Out of Character decisions on every die roll situation. A spade is a spade, and as I said, I try to call it as I see it. It is a narrative game that is very difficult to play as a traditional IC game. That's the truth of it.

To be fair, I have probably beaten "the 2d20 system sucks" drum too loudly. The OP did ask for an "opinion."  The mechanics do not suit my IC immersive traditional style (sorry about all the theory buzz words, I'm not sure how else to describe it).  I have rarely encountered a game that I couldn't make work for me - this is one. However, I am sure others will enjoy the game, and I hope they do.  

What bothers me the most I think is that I really enjoy the IP, but will not be able to enjoy the game.  I really wanted the ultimate Conan RPG.  For me, due to the 2d20 momentum/doom mechanics, that didn't happen, and it may be a long time before the IP finds another official system.  Until then, I am just SoL, and back to modifying old games (which is harder to sell to new players then a shiny new game).

That said, I backed the kickstarter in full (Horde level) to mine the game for setting inspiration and ideas.  It is the only kickstarter I've ever backed.

QuoteTheir chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune!"
-- Conan, "Queen of the Black Coast"

"I have marked you well, Conan of Cimmeria, and the stamp of mighty happenings and great deeds is upon you. But dooms are loose in the land, against which your sword can not aid you."
-- Epemitreus the Sage, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

"As an avalanche sweeps onward, gathering bulk and momentum, I will sweep into the lands of mine ancient enemies."
-- Natohk the Veiled One, "Black Colossus"

Doom, momentum, and fortune... used in the context we use them in the rules.

People forget how much REH implied a grand cosmic struggle in the Hyborian Age, from Mitra's direct intervention with Conan in "The Phoenix on the Sword" and "Black Colossus", to the regular mentions of Set's sinister influence upon the world.

These are interesting examples, but I don't really buy the argument.  Fate and the puppet strings of cosmic balance may have been an occasional element, but it was not the general and pervasive theme that ran through the stories. Themes of freewill (whether real or illusory), and man's struggle vs uncaring nature are everywhere.  That Conan trods the jeweled thrones of the age beneath his sandaled feet has nothing to do with the cosmic struggles of Mitra or Set, or some unknowable threads of fate. He seizes life by throat and builds an empire with his own hands.  That theme is extremely clear.  Conan may be a superstitious barbarian who fears gods and magic, but this fear is not the same as a universe that reacts to mortal action out some higher purpose.  There are unintelligible cosmic horrors, and cults and religions that seek to name, grasp or even control them, but you do not have a world where characters shape those cosmic forces through everyday action.  In 2d20 Conan, players are always presented with the situation where their character can choose to succeed or excel at any task as long as they are willing to accept the cosmic repercussions. This just doesn't represent Howard's vision.

Your first example above from Queen of the Black Coast is a call to self-reliance, as is Crom's religion throughout the stories.  Your second example of Epimitrius supports your claim somewhat, but it was Howard's first Conan story and these notions cosmic destiny give way to the more dominant themes of of "destiny is what you make it" as the stories continue.  Black Colossus is the primary return to the Epimitreus' claim from Phoenix that Conan is some kind of pawn in Mitra's plan.  But Natohk's visions do not come to pass, Yasmela chooses Conan randomly in her religious stupor, and though both characters believe desperately in fate, the reader never sees fate in action, only people's belief in it.  If there was some kind of cosmic forces at play in Black Colossus, Conan's wits, skill, and freewill undoes it.

Cheers

I find it so depressing that a game about one of the greatest table top rpg licensing opportunities in existence focuses on a bunch of fiddly fucking mechanics. For gods sake, when will our hobby stop grinding itself into dust by re-inventing the wheel over, and over, and over again. There are probably a dozen long-existing, well proven and well liked game systems that would be a great basis for conan game. Pick one and go.

Quote from: Larsdangly;981227I find it so depressing that a game about one of the greatest table top rpg licensing opportunities in existence focuses on a bunch of fiddly fucking mechanics. For gods sake, when will our hobby stop grinding itself into dust by re-inventing the wheel over, and over, and over again. There are probably a dozen long-existing, well proven and well liked game systems that would be a great basis for conan game. Pick one and go.

Which one would you choose?

As of yesterday, I suggest Conan GMs take a look at Exemplars & Eidolons.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons