Quote from: Voros;980858Which storygames are you thinking of that have a story in mind ahead of time and require you to hit a set of dramatic narrative principles? I'm sure there are some but I haven't encountered them.

There are some like Fiasco or Grey Ranks that end tragically or tragicomically in Fiasco's case but how you get there is no predetermined story or forced through dramatic narrative points in Fiasco, except for the twist I guess. Grey Ranks is a bit more of a flawed game but I've never seen it in action and find the rules as written difficult to grasp.

Honestly, I don't know.  I haven't taken part in one of these discussions in several years and I can't remember specific names of any games that do this stuff.  But as you say, I'm pretty sure they exist.  I mean just looking up "story games" on google leads me to blog posts such as

http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/460/defining-story-games/

in which the fellow basically provides his definition of story games and it's largely the sort of thing I'm not interested in.  I don't spend a whole lot of time investigating stuff I'm not interested in.  I also don't go into forums and threads that I know are full of people discussing stuff I'm not interested in (or actively dislike) and try and start shit up with them.  The times I've found myself involved in these "debates" have usually been as a result of something I've seen posted in a more general forum (such as this very thread) or in a thread related to a game I do like that somebody else (a "story gamer" if you will) has dropped a little bomb in.  

I can remember a few years back there seemed to be a lot of folks over on rpg.net who were awfully troubled by the fact that their characters in D&D kept getting killed by random kobold arrows to the eye.  I mean heck, if D&D is supposed to be so influenced by Conan stories and what not how come my character is such a weakling?  Conan is always kicking the asses of the People of the Black Circle and I keep sticking my thumb on a poisoned needle trap and dying!  What gives?

Meh.  I enjoy modules.  Some are better than others.  I'm not the imaginative uber genius GM some others apparently are...many modules are as good as anything I can come up with on my own.  lol...

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;980880Meh.  I enjoy modules.  Some are better than others.  I'm not the imaginative uber genius GM some others apparently are...many modules are as good as anything I can come up with on my own.  lol...

I used to look down on modules and the people who used them... but change of perspective happens and while I'm not likely to ever run one 'as is' I now see them as cookbooks... recipes for dishes that might not have occurred to me, and since I know how to cook without instructions I feel free to riff off their ingredients and add my own.
Also, they're sometimes useful examples for seeing how a game is intended to be played. Like, I recently picked up Nightmares Underneath and it has an interesting take on 'dungeons'... but no sample dungeon to illustrate its ideas. So then I bought City of Poison which is a module for the game so I could get a better idea of an 'Incursion'.

I think there are some great modules out there, I don't see what is so terrible about them. The idea that you should just invent your own exclusively, not sure how many people unfamiliar with GMing or RPGs could do that. And there's the time investment. Same thing for settings.

And by that logic, why use pre-made rules, don't real GMs come up with their own systems too??!!

One of the reasons I gave up D&D once I hit university was it was a time suck. More use of modules may have kept me in the game.

I've been revisiting the classic D&D modules and found several I'm interested in re-running or running for the first time: Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, ToH, Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, Night's Dark Terror, Treasure Hunt, When a Star Falls, Isle of Dread, The Lost City, Temple of Death.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;980819My apologies, Grover - I put you on Ignore a long time ago, and I thought I was replying to Voros.

The reply works either way, though.

I've had my differences with Grovie in the past, but in this particular case, referring to the original post, I think the poor son of a bitch was actually trying to have a reasonable discussion.

Quote from: David Johansen;980750I'm sorry to hear about where you live.  I'm in Lethbridge Alberta, a small rural city but I've spent a few years in small towns and I'm with you on "country music."

To address this idea in light of Grove's first post in the thread... what someone posts is influenced by every single thing that's going on in their lives, and at one point or another every person loses, at least temporarily, the ability to separate their feelings on different matters.

Quote from: rgrove0172;980876Gotcha GofS but there are obviously lots of people that have a very different opinion of them. They have sold, and still do, thousands of copies and practically every new mainstream game includes them eventually. Your distaste is noted but your comparison is strictly yours. Most modules Ive read were not Outback Steakhouses certainly but I wouldnt call them vomit worthy. Thats just been my impression of course.

Oh, I know my opinion is in the minority.

There's a lot of modules that are good, Voros gave some examples.  WFRP was famous for good adventures.  Even if you never run a single module as written or even anything remotely close to as written, you can still get tons of mileage out of the maps, npcs, unique magic items, monsters etc.  

Even if you design every adventure yourself the way God intended, by writing with a piece of coal on the back of a shovel by the light of a tallow candle, after walking to the woodshed 5 miles uphill through snow, you still are pulling ideas from everything you've ever read, seen, heard, etc. so why not have more adventure ideas swirling around the fetid sludge of your subconscious?

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;980879I can remember a few years back there seemed to be a lot of folks over on rpg.net who were awfully troubled by the fact that their characters in D&D kept getting killed by random kobold arrows to the eye.  I mean heck, if D&D is supposed to be so influenced by Conan stories and what not how come my character is such a weakling?  Conan is always kicking the asses of the People of the Black Circle and I keep sticking my thumb on a poisoned needle trap and dying!  What gives?

I remember this vividly.  When I pointed out that the intention of the game was that you didn't know if you were Conan or Taurus of Nemedia until the game was over, I got slagged.

In that or another similar thread there was much bitching about things like Ear Seekers "fucking over players for doing what they were trained," and "Gygax making the game less fun."

Apparently, many people want to "activate standard Door Opening Procedure" and have it always work flawlessly.

Quote from: Nexus;980878This is where I am. I usually don't run modules but I've found they can be illuminating as to tha authorial intent of the setting and sometimes elements within it. And sometimes you can mine them for ideas and inspiration. As a material example. GURPS Transhuman Space is a game that would have used a few more published scenarios as a guide to what PCs could do in the setting. It didn't help that the first one 'Orbital Decay' paints an incorrect impression of the setting. At least according to some fans (and IIRC, the current Line Developer).

I definitely agree. Modules as examples of "So what do we do?" can be very important, even if the answer is "Not that" (qv Keep on the Shadowfell).

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of modules over the years. Like others have said, even if you don't run them entirely as they were written, you can often pull NPCs, Monsters, Encounters etc. A lot of modules get used as things I can pull off the shelf in a pinch when something from them suddenly feels relevant to what is going on in a game.

There is also something to be said for running them as intended to get a sense of what the designer is going for. Sometimes you realize a thing you didn't think would work at all, works great. You also see what clearly doesn't work.

I have united everyone into telling me why modules are awesome.  Universal Brotherhood!

Kumbiya, my Lord, Kumbiya...






(The preceeding post may contain sarcasm, humor, and/or flatulence.  Take seriously at your own risk.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980906I have united everyone into telling me why modules are awesome.  Universal Brotherhood!

Kumbiya, my Lord, Kumbiya...






(The preceeding post may contain sarcasm, humor, and/or flatulence.  Take seriously at your own risk.)

well...they're awesome as long as they aren't all railroadey!  

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980890I've had my differences with Grovie in the past, but in this particular case, referring to the original post, I think the poor son of a bitch was actually trying to have a reasonable discussion.

And for the most part I got one. I have a better understanding now of why some of the members here responded so hostile towards my own approach to GMing and the examples I gave. I didnt realize there actually was a sort of "war" going on between the two camps and some of the shitty attitudes that caused it to escalate. Ive been gaming a LONG time but was pretty new to the industry and culture, if that makes any sense. This has been enlightening. I think I can handle some of BV's, Gronan's and a few of the other's abuse a bit better now!

Quote from: rgrove0172;980911And for the most part I got one. I have a better understanding now of why some of the members here responded so hostile towards my own approach to GMing and the examples I gave. I didnt realize there actually was a sort of "war" going on between the two camps and some of the shitty attitudes that caused it to escalate. Ive been gaming a LONG time but was pretty new to the industry and culture, if that makes any sense. This has been enlightening. I think I can handle some of BV's, Gronan's and a few of the other's abuse a bit better now!

Well, in the case of BV and me, the best response to be given shit is give it right back.  Because at the end of the day, it's all just opinion.

And as my dear wife says, "Opinions are like assholes.  Everybody's got one, and they're all full of shit except your own."

But I kind of know what you mean about being out of touch.  I came back to gaming about 2000 and shortly after started frequenting game forums.

And, as BV said in Post 117, "I spent years upon years reading poster upon poster who slagged chance encounters, sandbox play, random chargen, no plot immunity, playing-to-find-out, develop-in-play, &c as  puerile, 'basic,' 'rollplaying,' right up until the hipsters and poseurs 'rediscovered' D&D and made it 'acceptable' to like the shit I've liked about roleplaying games since I was twelve."

I had virtually point for point the same experience, plus "Your old rules are OBJECTIVELY WRONG!  And you're BAD and STUPID for liking them!"  And, of course, let's not forget "OD&D is (multiple things that are in point of fact contradicted in the text) and that's why it sucks!"

After a few years of having sandpaper run through your urethra, you get a bit tetchy.