Quote from: Simlasa;980827Yeah, much as I like Once Upon A Time... and it is a game about creating a story... I can't say many of the stories I've seen it generate are particularly good (though elements of it might be great).
The main motivation of the players is to gain and keep control of the storyline in order to get rid of cards in their hand and that does not in any way insure a good tale is told.
A retelling of the average D&D session would probably have a more cohesive plot with discernible cause and effect.

yeah.  Probably.  And generating a story through play and then re-telling it later is exactly what I want from an rpg.  Having a story in mind ahead of time and then making sure things in the game go pretty much according to that story and hit all the major dramatic notes and so forth isn't.  It's more about having a set of dramatic narrative principles that need to be met than it is an actual plot though (in terms of what I don't like that is).  The idea that characters need to achieve a certain type of narrative arc...that their deaths need to meet a certain dramatic gravitas, that dramatic "spotlight" time needs to be equally distributed among characters, that players need to have a part in directing the narrative outside of the influence the actions of their characters would have in the reality of their world...that sort of thing.

Quote from: Simlasa;980827Yeah, much as I like Once Upon A Time... and it is a game about creating a story... I can't say many of the stories I've seen it generate are particularly good (though elements of it might be great).
The main motivation of the players is to gain and keep control of the storyline in order to get rid of cards in their hand and that does not in any way insure a good tale is told.
A retelling of the average D&D session would probably have a more cohesive plot with discernible cause and effect.

Yeah, interesting point.  The competitive nature of most Storygames' mechanics end up getting in the way of creating a good story.  The collaborative ones in which the elements are there just to give ideas are more likely to lead to better stories I think.

Just playing an RPG straight without any narrative cheat codes and then writing a story about what happened afterward would likely create a better story.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980679It worked so well because many of us knew each other, we were all there to have fun and relax, and several of us knew the environment up, down, left, right, and sideways.

Now, where's the fun in that?

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;980830yeah.  Probably.  And generating a story through play and then re-telling it later is exactly what I want from an rpg.

Except of course that's not what's happening unless you use narrative mechanics.  What you're generating through play is a set of events that occurred as a result of roleplaying a character.  Generating the story about those events is a creative act separate unto itself.

Story isn't created through roleplay and then retold, Story is created through memory and the creative process when told.

The proof?  Next time you run a session, ask each of your players to write a short story based on the events that occurred.  Compare them.  One set of events, X number of different, sometimes wildly different, stories.

Quote from: Omega;980775Nah, happens on BGG/RPGG too. Just usually from the opposite end. Sometimes from the extreme opposite end.

Ugh, yeah.

Quote from: Omega;980775(...) Concupiscent (...)

Ooh, I was unfamiliar with that word. I like it.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;980819I spent years upon years reading poster upon poster who slagged chance encounters, sandbox play, random chargen, no plot immunity, playing-to-find-out, develop-in-play, &c as  puerile, 'basic,' 'rollplaying,' right up until the hipsters and poseurs 'rediscovered' D&D and made it 'acceptable' to like the shit I've liked about roleplaying games since I was twelve.

Culminating in old-school-with-"indie"-cred stuff like Dungeon World, kind of Forge-approved "traditional gaming".

Quote from: CRKrueger;980845Except of course that's not what's happening unless you use narrative mechanics.  What you're generating through play is a set of events that occurred as a result of roleplaying a character.  Generating the story about those events is a creative act separate unto itself.

Story isn't created through roleplay and then retold, Story is created through memory and the creative process when told.

The proof?  Next time you run a session, ask each of your players to write a short story based on the events that occurred.  Compare them.

oh let me clarify that.  lol...re-telling the events of a game session as a story afterwards isn't actually something I would ever actually undertake.  I mean my goal in playing is to play, not to create fodder for a story.  But of course, when you tell a story based on a series of events that has happened, that story is always fed through a filter of the individual telling the story.  Stories are ALWAYS a "version" of the real events they describe.

A more accurate way to state my original point is to say that I want the rpg to generate the events and then if anyone involved wants to tell the story of those events later, go for it.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;980848A more accurate way to state my original point is to say that I want the rpg to generate the events and then if anyone involved wants to tell the story of those events later, go for it.

I get you.  The reason I try to get IC roleplayers to be less sloppy about using terms like story is that there are roleplayers and designers out there who think that roleplaying creates a story.  That roleplaying is a creative art form that produces an artistic product.  That roleplayers create story whether they realize they are doing it or not.

It was ok for roleplayers to use a generic wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey definition of story that we all knew really wasn't well-connected to the creative writing side of things back in the day, but we ain't back in the day.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;980830yeah.  Probably.  And generating a story through play and then re-telling it later is exactly what I want from an rpg.  Having a story in mind ahead of time and then making sure things in the game go pretty much according to that story and hit all the major dramatic notes and so forth isn't.  It's more about having a set of dramatic narrative principles that need to be met than it is an actual plot though (in terms of what I don't like that is).  The idea that characters need to achieve a certain type of narrative arc...that their deaths need to meet a certain dramatic gravitas, that dramatic "spotlight" time needs to be equally distributed among characters, that players need to have a part in directing the narrative outside of the influence the actions of their characters would have in the reality of their world...that sort of thing.

Which storygames are you thinking of that have a story in mind ahead of time and require you to hit a set of dramatic narrative principles? I'm sure there are some but I haven't encountered them.

There are some like Fiasco or Grey Ranks that end tragically or tragicomically in Fiasco's case but how you get there is no predetermined story or forced through dramatic narrative points in Fiasco, except for the twist I guess. Grey Ranks is a bit more of a flawed game but I've never seen it in action and find the rules as written difficult to grasp.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;980819Anyone who says that 'trad' gamers or the OSR started this fight is full of shit straight up to their fucking worthless eyeballs.

Oh yeah it is all one sides fault.

That sounds likely.

As usual a very adult and constructive response from BV, our resident manchild:

'Someone once disagreed with me on the internets!'

Quote from: Omega;980777Think of modules as going out to a restaurant and eating rather than cooking all that stuff yourself. Maybee because you cant cook. Maybee to save time. Maybee you like that places cooking better than your own. etc. And there are places that serve you great, and there are places that... dont.

But thats probably a subject for a different thread.

But to follow that analogy, modules are the shriveled dried-up hamburgers under the heat lamps at the local all night gas station at 2 AM.  Even McDonald's would be infinitely better.  Hell, even White Castle would be infinitely better.

I've never read a single module I liked, all the way back to G1.

Quote from: Omega;980775Nah, happens on BGG/RPGG too. Just usually from the opposite end. Sometimes from the extreme opposite end.

I think the more common outlook here tends to be that narrative and more importantly a story is a natural outgrowth of the gameplay.
Gronan was punched in the nuts by Celerus because he happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time by the players own action, or inaction.. Rather than no matter what Gronan does, such as wisely fleeing the country to the fabled Island of Concupiscent Redheads, Celerus is going to appear and punch Gronan in the nuts. Bonus points if the soon to be doubled over Gronan can't even leave the city, or the damn street because... STORY!

Dang, SOMEBODY listens.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;980828Y'know, the question was asked and us "guys who hate narrative story elements" in our rpgs are just trying to answer...it's hard to go all kumbaya and answer the question at the same time...

Sure, no one is saying hug it out but is shit like "up to their worthless eyeballs" really necessary? The "brain damage" pretentious crap was stupid as Hell too. Its just different preferences over silly games. You've got some (not all) people in this thread and other similar ones acting like this is Serious Business.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;980867But to follow that analogy, modules are the shriveled dried-up hamburgers under the heat lamps at the local all night gas station at 2 AM.  Even McDonald's would be infinitely better.  Hell, even White Castle would be infinitely better.

I've never read a single module I liked, all the way back to G1.

Gotcha GofS but there are obviously lots of people that have a very different opinion of them. They have sold, and still do, thousands of copies and practically every new mainstream game includes them eventually. Your distaste is noted but your comparison is strictly yours. Most modules Ive read were not Outback Steakhouses certainly but I wouldnt call them vomit worthy. Thats just been my impression of course.

I like to get one or two modules per RPG, just to get an idea of what the game designer(s) intend an adventure for their RPG to be.  Doesn't mean that the module will be used, but it can be a good starting point and may help clarify some things.

Quote from: Celestial;980877I like to get one or two modules per RPG, just to get an idea of what the game designer(s) intend an adventure for their RPG to be.  Doesn't mean that the module will be used, but it can be a good starting point and may help clarify some things.

This is where I am. I usually don't run modules but I've found they can be illuminating as to tha authorial intent of the setting and sometimes elements within it. And sometimes you can mine them for ideas and inspiration. As a material example. GURPS Transhuman Space is a game that would have used a few more published scenarios as a guide to what PCs could do in the setting. It didn't help that the first one 'Orbital Decay' paints an incorrect impression of the setting. At least according to some fans (and IIRC, the current Line Developer).