GMing a hostage situation when players don't give up?

jhkim · July 21, 2017, 05:45:58 PM

Quote from: Bren;977189This really depends on the kind of fiction one reads, watches, or listens to. It certainly used to be more common in fiction that the good guys would put down their guns bravely risking their own lives rather than risk an innocent hostage being killed.

To be fair, it's also very common in fiction for the heroes to bravely put down their guns, and then the enemy behaves dishonorably and still tries to kill both them and the hostages.

Without that expectation that the enemy is honorable and trustworthy, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to comply. For me, one of the nice things about RPGs is that we're not bound to the conventions of fiction.

Skarg · July 21, 2017, 06:35:48 PM

The whole issue of hostages and prisoners and negotiations can be very complex and interesting. It shifts focus to why people are fighting and what else they might do. That can either be an interesting thing to explore in a game, or something some players don't want to look at at all, and preferences can vary from game to game which is fine, though it can also cause conflict when players disagree. If players always just fight to the death and refuse any negotiations or threats, it can remove a lot of that complexity and raises the stakes.

Bren · July 21, 2017, 06:55:16 PM

Quote from: Skarg;977203If players always just fight to the death and refuse any negotiations or threats, it can remove a lot of that complexity and raises the stakes.

...and bores me to tears.

Skarg · July 21, 2017, 06:56:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim;977199To be fair, it's also very common in fiction for the heroes to bravely put down their guns, and then the enemy behaves dishonorably and still tries to kill both them and the hostages.

Without that expectation that the enemy is honorable and trustworthy, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to comply. For me, one of the nice things about RPGs is that we're not bound to the conventions of fiction.

Yeah that's one that bugs me in fiction. Known evil badguy has gun to hostage's head. Rescuers have gun pointed at hostage-taker. Evil guy tells rescuers to throw away their guns, and they do, putting everyone at the mercy of the known evil badguy, instead of just one person? Even police, who IRL are trained never to do that.

Skarg · July 21, 2017, 07:00:01 PM

Quote from: Bren;977208...and bores me to tears.

To me it depends, but yes I usually prefer there to be more possibilities and the PCs & NPCs to act like real people who want to stay alive and don't reduce everything to a fight to the death.

Harlock · July 22, 2017, 04:46:31 AM

Quote from: Dumarest;976940Yes. Kill the hostage. Stupid decisions by PCs should have appropriate results.

Also, if someone if bound/tied and a hostage, killing the hostage shouldn't require any rolls or counting hit points or saving throws. At least I wouldn't bother with that as it makes no sense. If a PC with 100 hit points jumps off a 1,000-foot cliff, do you roll for damage to see if he dies?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;976946Exactly. We're not 14 any more.

It seems in our games when using a system where 0 HP is unconscious and negatives get to whatever before the PC dies, we usually ignore the PC that's down. They're out of the fight, so resources are not wasted on them by the attackers. I did have a habit of making animal level intelligence creatures try and grab the smallest, easiest meal (usually my son's halfling in my last campaign) and trying to drag them away some place quiet to dine on his still living carcasse. He became affectionately known as "The Halfling Chew Stick".

Lunamancer · July 22, 2017, 10:33:57 AM

Quote from: Skarg;977210Yeah that's one that bugs me in fiction. Known evil badguy has gun to hostage's head. Rescuers have gun pointed at hostage-taker. Evil guy tells rescuers to throw away their guns, and they do, putting everyone at the mercy of the known evil badguy, instead of just one person? Even police, who IRL are trained never to do that.

In the better works of fiction, of course, the good guy only throws down his weapon because he's got another plan and wants the bad guy to let his guard down some. It's certainly not the only example, but the end of Die Hard is a great one. I think the two elements of a great hostage scene are asymmetric information and negotiation technique. Either or will do.

Skarg · July 22, 2017, 11:00:21 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer;977307In the better works of fiction, of course, the good guy only throws down his weapon because he's got another plan and wants the bad guy to let his guard down some. It's certainly not the only example, but the end of Die Hard is a great one. I think the two elements of a great hostage scene are asymmetric information and negotiation technique. Either or will do.

Yes, quite!
I was thinking more of lazy, apathetic, or thoughtless writing.

mAcular Chaotic · July 22, 2017, 11:14:22 AM

Quote from: Skarg;977210Yeah that's one that bugs me in fiction. Known evil badguy has gun to hostage's head. Rescuers have gun pointed at hostage-taker. Evil guy tells rescuers to throw away their guns, and they do, putting everyone at the mercy of the known evil badguy, instead of just one person? Even police, who IRL are trained never to do that.

It made sense to me. It usually happens in situations where the entire reason a hostage is taken is the character is a softy, and it is one of their loved ones. They don't want to risk the chance that the guy will pull the trigger before they save them.

Ratman_tf · July 22, 2017, 12:29:21 PM

[video=youtube_share;snRvmi8kelQ]https://youtu.be/snRvmi8kelQ[/youtube]

Skarg · July 22, 2017, 03:12:12 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;977318It made sense to me. It usually happens in situations where the entire reason a hostage is taken is the character is a softy, and it is one of their loved ones. They don't want to risk the chance that the guy will pull the trigger before they save them.

Mhmm, though the examples that bug me have no plan (they don't even get a promise, or take cover themselves before dropping the gun, or have a backup, or anything) and don't seem to realize that the evil one probably cares about their own survival more than they want to kill the hostage, so the gun on them is what's preventing them from firing, and dropping it just leads to all the non-evil characters being at the mercy of the evil one, who then often predictably intends to kill everyone anyway, and is only stopped by writer intervention of one form or another.

Omega · July 23, 2017, 05:48:54 AM

Quote from: Baron Opal;976980We stabbed the bad guy before he put a knife to her neck.
Or we cast stoneskin on her.
Or gambled and magic missile -ed the creep.
Or dimension door-ed her away.
Or charmed the creep.
Or negotiated with him, ransoms work too.
Or said "kill her! We'll just raise her!" (BTW, not a good plan.)
Ooh! My favorite was polymorphing the princess into a troll! Then they get to take out the bad guy, instead. They like that- good plan.

That last one reminds me of a session we were in way back. Villain and minions have the hostage, a priestess of some prestige, and its a standoff.
One of the players had an item belonging to the priestess and as we were out of options that didnt end in "dead hostage" he tossed her the item. A ring I believe. And by some miracle she got the initiative, slipped it on, and promptly turned into a bronze dragon.

All hell breaks loose. The roof breaks loose. Dragons blasting people and we are grabbing loot and waiting behind a wall for the dust to settle. Dragon/priestess/whatever-the-hell flies off and we get to loot the aftermath.

Omega · July 23, 2017, 06:42:24 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;977148Raise Dead is now only a third level spell? Fuck.

5th level in 5e. Takes an hour to cast. Works only within 10 days of death, penalties that linger for a few long rests.(days)

Also 5th level in BX and AD&D and 2e and 3e.
In 4e is some sort of ritual, level 8. No clue if that is PC level or spell level?

Opaopajr · July 23, 2017, 08:42:52 AM

He who controls the diamonds controls the resurrections (revivify, etc.)... :cool: DeBeers owns your next lives.

DavetheLost · July 23, 2017, 09:41:27 AM

Thank you all for confirming that D&D 5e is not a game I am interested in.

Let the dice fall where they may if the PCs bullrush the hostage takers. If the hostage takers are serious about killing the hostage then have them do so. It seems to me that the OP's players continue to use "bullrush the hostage takers" as a tactic for one simple reason, it works.

It seems that under 5e rules the hostage is in minimal if any danger of actually dying and the players know this. Under these circumstances there are only two choices. One, stop taking hostages that are in no danger, that gambit to increase drama will continue to fail. Two, change the rules so that the hostage is in actual meaningful danger.