Quote from: S'mon;967021Mostly fashion.

My old school had photos of the girls' hockey team on the wall, ca 1900-1990. The picture from 1920 looked more like the 1990 picture than like the 1914 picture.

That sounds like an interesting display to peruse.

Quote from: Dumarest;966964Maybe I'm wrong, but this sounds like the kind of stuff people debate online instead of actually playing games. :rolleyes:

I am designing a setting that includes industry and space travel, but wanted to avoid the problems mentioned in the article. I find mixing magic and modern technology (a la Starfinder) inelegant. Thus, I initially decided everything runs on magic (a la Spelljammer) and reduced magic-user versatility so that "spaceship pilot" is a viable magic-user profession. I'm open to alternate solutions.

I think the original linked article suffers from a lot of assumptions. Really, I think the consequences of magic need to be dealt with *specifically* for a given magic system and setting. D&D magic isn't going to have the same consequences as Earthdawn magic, and even AD&D1 magic in Greyhawk isn't going to have the same consequences as D&D5 magic in Faerun.

Many spells will have no consequence, but just a few specific spells (like Cure Disease) and their exact stats can make a huge difference.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;967131I am designing a setting that includes industry and space travel, but wanted to avoid the problems mentioned in the article. I find mixing magic and modern technology (a la Starfinder) inelegant. Thus, I initially decided everything runs on magic (a la Spelljammer) and reduced magic-user versatility so that "spaceship pilot" is a viable magic-user profession. I'm open to alternate solutions.

I have an old, short article on some potential consequences of magic systems.

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/magicandsociety.html

Rarity of magic means that there are few mundane countermeasures to magic, so those little bits of magic can have some far-reaching consequences. If only a handful of people can become invisible, transform into a cat, or similar - then none of the rest of the world can deal with that. They have unfettered ability to spy and intrude.

I'd want to know more about the specifics of the magic system and world to comment on what inconsistencies might be.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966933explores the consequences of high magic

Yes, go on...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966933and how it would logically tear any pre-modern setting apart.

...Hahahahhaha "logically". High magic. Logically.

Yeah. I'm more of a simulationist (if we have to apply labels) than most, and all I'll say is that way lies madness.

Make stuff up. Imagine what you think makes "sense" for your Elf-play. Stop worrying.

Quote from: S'mon;966982No, no it doesn't. Not unless Freedom means Driving a Shiv Into My Wrong-thinking Neighbour's Heart Without Fear of Reprisal.

They had it comin'.

1 - Counter-magics seem to go a long way towards answering this question.
2 - Also that if magic worked consistently and according to some precise, unchanging formula, it would be science. Even if it's not the case mechanically, I imagine if someone tried to take it "macro" it wouldn't work so well.
3 - As to Estar's points about industrializing requiring philosophy as well as technology, I'll add capital accumulation to the list (some economists consider it by far the most relevant factor). Magic that is conjured up, does its thing, then vanishes at the end of its duration is not very conducive to accumulation. You'll still have to accumulate the old fashioned way. Could magic help? Sure, but see points 1 and 2.

I run into a whole host of more complelling "unrealism' issues long before I come to the societal impact of powerful magic.

To quote Gronan "just play the stupid game".

Quote from: jhkim;967217I think the original linked article suffers from a lot of assumptions. Really, I think the consequences of magic need to be dealt with *specifically* for a given magic system and setting. D&D magic isn't going to have the same consequences as Earthdawn magic, and even AD&D1 magic in Greyhawk isn't going to have the same consequences as D&D5 magic in Faerun.

Many spells will have no consequence, but just a few specific spells (like Cure Disease) and their exact stats can make a huge difference.


I have an old, short article on some potential consequences of magic systems.

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/magicandsociety.html

Rarity of magic means that there are few mundane countermeasures to magic, so those little bits of magic can have some far-reaching consequences. If only a handful of people can become invisible, transform into a cat, or similar - then none of the rest of the world can deal with that. They have unfettered ability to spy and intrude.

I'd want to know more about the specifics of the magic system and world to comment on what inconsistencies might be.

The resulting world as you give in your examples bears a close resemblance to that of early editions of D&D. The implied setting was loosely modeled after the colonization of the Americas with some medieval window dressing. This is a good choice in my opinion because it lends itself well to adventuring, and I find it great way to distinguish the setting from the innumerable Tolkien clones. In this way, D&D sits next to the Wizard of Oz as uniquely American fairy tales. In fact, the Wizard of Oz is a good example of your essay because it is ruled by magic-users who assassinated their predecessors and competitors.

BTW, I decided to have everything run on magic as you suggested in your article on "scientific magic systems," but D&D is not the best rules to represent that because it relies on a martial/caster distinction. 3pp supplements such as the Spheres of X series attempt to patch it, but it would be more elegant to use a skill-based system.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;967372The resulting world as you give in your examples bears a close resemblance to that of early editions of D&D.

Yes; Wilderlands of High Fantasy is probably the best published example. The Fighting Fantasy Gamebook setting Allansia is another example.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966933An article at mythcreants explores the consequences of high magic and how it would logically tear any pre-modern setting apart.

I figured that a simple way to prevent the situations listed in the article would be to limit the availability of magic (such as reducing the population of magic-users and forcing them to specialize in a particular theme to be competent) and have the universe run on magic wholesale (rather than real physics with magic tacked on) so that technology either cannot exist or is another brand of magic.

What solutions would you suggest?

I'd suggest not trying to fix things before you're observing a problem with them. Theoretical articles don't count. However if the idea interests you and you want to set up your world and adventure situations to either avoid or explore such issues in play, go ahead and see what works. In my experience, there can be some issues that bother me, when the setting makes powerful magic available, and the GM hasn't thought much about what the implications are in play. Economics and politics and whatnot don't necessarily come up in play, but they or related things can when a clever player gets some powerful magic, and suddenly wants to rob and/or kill and/or become the people who are supposedly powerful, at which point it can be better if you have a good GM and one who has already considered such possibilities and/or handles them well, as opposed to GMs who haven't considered them and/or react to them in ways that don't make a lot of sense in one way or another.

I end up tending to want to run mostly low-magic games, where I've designed the setting so that certain groups know certain spells that don't get terribly powerful or at least their powers are something I can easily think about and feel like I understand what's going on and why, so when/if the PCs do get involved with powerful magic, I have an established basis for determining what's liable to happen next.

Quote from: Skarg;967380Theoretical articles don't count.

Theoretical articles about RPGs are largely a waste of effort.

I would say, if the problem doesn't arise at your table, don't waste your time agonizing about it.

Quote from: S'mon;967379Yes; Wilderlands of High Fantasy is probably the best published example. The Fighting Fantasy Gamebook setting Allansia is another example.

Thanks for the reference!

Quote from: Dumarest;967383Theoretical articles about RPGs are largely a waste of effort.

I would say, if the problem doesn't arise at your table, don't waste your time agonizing about it.

I would say reading such articles and discussing them has given me a greater appreciation of frontier fantasy. My next campaign setting is going to be fantasy space western!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;967390My next campaign setting is going to be fantasy space western!

I hope you will post about it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;966933An article at mythcreants explores the consequences of high magic and how it would logically tear any pre-modern setting apart.

I figured that a simple way to prevent the situations listed in the article would be to limit the availability of magic (such as reducing the population of magic-users and forcing them to specialize in a particular theme to be competent) and have the universe run on magic wholesale (rather than real physics with magic tacked on) so that technology either cannot exist or is another brand of magic.

What solutions would you suggest?

If magic was relatively low-powered (like, Dark Albion levels), it would change nothing of large-scale significance. People in the early-modern period already ran a culture that held the paradigm that magic was real and could do real things.

If it was high-powered and common, then you shouldn't worry about those sorts of things in the campaign, because your campaign is destined to make no historical sense.

Quote from: RPGPundit;968388If it was high-powered and common, then you shouldn't worry about those sorts of things in the campaign, because your campaign is destined to make no historical sense.

Not really. In D&D at least there are various checks to all this high magic flying around that arent in some other sources. The biggest is Dispell Magic. This alone can cause massive havoc. Created your castle with walls of stone? One or more dispells could bring down a large swath if it catches multiple sections. Continual lights snuffed. etc.

Then theres natural hazards like magic dead zones. There is a module in one of the UK RPG magazines about a wizard trying to become a god by absorbing all the magic in the area. Creating a huge magic dead zone that never recovered. Powerful curses from NPCs might too.

So all it takes is one fruitcake to render an area. There were even cases of permanent dispell magic zones.

In Dragon Storm there was the concept of ood, ambient magic. Some areas were so depleted of ood that just being in them causes magic beings to sicken. And then there were pristine areas where magic was so high it sickens those without a high affinity.

You can have a high magic setting that works perfectly fine. The problem is when some self appointed "smahtie" comes along and tries to fuck it up with some "example" and no one stops and says "Sorry. Thats not how it works."