Quote from: Headless;963399Not that I don't enjoy a class merits discussion, I was really hoping to point out and clear up parts of the rules where play slows down, or players and DMs regularly have different interpretations of how the rules are supposed to work.

The aformentioned poping back into combat from 0 to 1 HP heal is another of those potential problem points.

Theres ways of curbing it. but not many without houseruling in something like the exhaustion suggestion earlier.

Goodberry can be a nuisance depending on how the DM or players try to word it. Its not as horrible as some make it out to be though. Its main problem point is when a DM suddenly wants to run a session where food is vital but refuses to come up with some way to shut down goodberry for that span. Thats the DM not the berry being a problem.

Ambiguous wording of some other spells or interpretation by players can create some hang points too.

Force Wall and Gate came up at one point in early discussions.

Quote from: Omega;964221Goodberry can be a nuisance depending on how the DM or players try to word it. Its not as horrible as some make it out to be though. Its main problem point is when a DM suddenly wants to run a session where food is vital but refuses to come up with some way to shut down goodberry for that span. Thats the DM not the berry being a problem.

At lower levels, Goodberry also provides by far the best healing in the game from Life Clerics who have gained access to it, so much so that a DM will likely have to adjust encounter frequency to account for it.

Quote from: Doom;963605AND has much greater utility and almost no way for spells to be interrupted.

Alot of 5e spells are now concentration based. So yes you can interrupt spells still. And Counterspell can be cast to cancel out spells as well. Or even counter a counterspell.

 The real issue is some of the damaging concentration spells. Sunbeam was the one I ran into as a DM. 6th level spell, Picked up at 11th level normally. But the PCs were desperate and used it from a scroll. Thats a concentration spell and effectively fires a laser beam for up to 10 rounds doing 6d8 damage each round if any target in the beam path fails a save, 1/2 that if they make it.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;963606At-will damage was introduced in 3rd edition and was the answer to wizards spending most of their time at low levels being pajama-clad dead weight.

The people who really wish the only thing they had in their arsenal was hurling pebbles with a useless THAC0 are, judging by the popularity of 5e, not that numerous. Same with flexible casting. There doesn't seem to be much clamor for the old way to come back. And FWIW, Concentration is practically identical to DCC 2011 beta. Was DCC first, or did they get it from somewhere else?

1: Darts, throwing daggers, wacking someone with a long stick is not useless. I was also the group mapper and negitiator. And as mentioned in other threads, the UNDEAD KING! :cool:

2: Since when? In AD&D at low levels a MU has only a little less than a fighter or cleric for a to hit. In BX a magic user and a fighter use the same to hit till level 3. The big difference is the fighter leaps ahead really fast. My AD&D magic user threw darts, lots of darts. That was still relatively the same even in 2e. A 5th level Fighter has a to hit of 16 and the Wizard a 19. Past that though the fighter pulls way ahead. But the wizard isnt useless in combat. Just not as spectacular as the fighter, which is as it should be.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;963635- Warlocks are cool, but some of their abilities are somewhat controlled by DM fiat to make them potent (it's all very well having a Book of Rituals, for example, but you do need to have your DM let you find some to put them in, etc).

If the DMs rolling random treasure then you might never come across the widget you need. That is not fiat. Sorry.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963847Cover art?  Agreed.  Interior art, save anything dealing with Halflings is rather impressive in my opinion.

Jeebus those are some deformed halflings in the PHB!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964220So honest question time:  Why is letting players be heroes/dungeon explorers longer a bad thing?

I sincerely and honest am not following this line of thought, am I missing something?

Longer without any consequences or checks? Thats how some of the Short and long rest issues crop up. And the PCs allready have a tone of HP and some of the classes get more phantom HP in one form or another at some point. Barbarians take half danage while raging, Rogues around level 6 take half damage from melee attacks they can see, Druids via shapechange, Warlock with an at-will false life. (small, but its effectively unlimited as long as keep renewing it.) And a few other outliers like the fighters second wind.

Quote from: Brand55;964224At lower levels, Goodberry also provides by far the best healing in the game from Life Clerics who have gained access to it, so much so that a DM will likely have to adjust encounter frequency to account for it.

Dont allow optional variant humans and access to feats that allow that?

Quote from: Omega;964230If the DMs rolling random treasure then you might never come across the widget you need. That is not fiat. Sorry.

There is no obligation for the DM to use any table in the DM's Guide ("Guide" being the operative word). Some DM's are more generous than others with regards to treasure. So it is fiat. Sorry.

Quote from: Omega;9642281: Darts, throwing daggers, wacking someone with a long stick is not useless. I was also the group mapper and negitiator. And as mentioned in other threads, the UNDEAD KING! :cool:

2: Since when? In AD&D at low levels a MU has only a little less than a fighter or cleric for a to hit. In BX a magic user and a fighter use the same to hit till level 3. The big difference is the fighter leaps ahead really fast. My AD&D magic user threw darts, lots of darts. That was still relatively the same even in 2e. A 5th level Fighter has a to hit of 16 and the Wizard a 19. Past that though the fighter pulls way ahead. But the wizard isnt useless in combat. Just not as spectacular as the fighter, which is as it should be.

With weapon specialization, the 2e fighter would have a THAC0 of 15 by then. Of course, in 5e, a cantrip does about half the damage of a standard weapon attack. I think people used to AD&D see the d8 for Ray of Frost and think it's equivalent to a sword, forgetting that in the WotC editions, about half the damage of an attack will come from your ability modifier. 5e cantrips really are a lot cooler on paper than in practice.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;964268With weapon specialization, the 2e fighter would have a THAC0 of 15 by then. Of course, in 5e, a cantrip does about half the damage of a standard weapon attack. I think people used to AD&D see the d8 for Ray of Frost and think it's equivalent to a sword, forgetting that in the WotC editions, about half the damage of an attack will come from your ability modifier. 5e cantrips really are a lot cooler on paper than in practice.

Which brings up another thing.  Why not have your wizard take a short bow? Its more damage, or could be.  They have the same to-hit as a fighter.  And it doesn't turn your casters into spaming pew-pewers.  

I really hate the at will pew-pews.  

Actually I may house rule that if you cast a damage cantrip you have to say pew-pew.

Quote from: Headless;964273Which brings up another thing.  Why not have your wizard take a short bow? Its more damage, or could be.  They have the same to-hit as a fighter.  And it doesn't turn your casters into spaming pew-pewers.  

I really hate the at will pew-pews.  

Actually I may house rule that if you cast a damage cantrip you have to say pew-pew.

In my Mentzer BECM game MUs can use hunting bows - ranged attack for d4 damage.

Quote from: Omega;964232Jeebus those are some deformed halflings in the PHB!

I'm glad I'm not the only one.  Why couldn't they have just made some Elijah Wood lookin' halflings?

Quote from: Christopher BradySo honest question time: Why is letting players be heroes/dungeon explorers longer a bad thing?

 I sincerely and honest am not following this line of thought, am I missing something?

Quote from: Omega;964235Longer without any consequences or checks? Thats how some of the Short and long rest issues crop up. And the PCs allready have a tone of HP and some of the classes get more phantom HP in one form or another at some point. Barbarians take half danage while raging, Rogues around level 6 take half damage from melee attacks they can see, Druids via shapechange, Warlock with an at-will false life. (small, but its effectively unlimited as long as keep renewing it.) And a few other outliers like the fighters second wind.

There are consequences and checks. Short Rests are an expended resource (seeking the opportunity to successfully take one). As are those expended hd (two Long rests to recover all of them). Short rests are just another mechanic similar to second wind or a self-only cure spell--you expend one limited resource to get back another. Instead of all these hp recovery mechanics, phantom hp mechanics, and hp-loss mitigation mechanics (such as damage resistance), the designers could have simply given everyone twice as many (or some other multiplier) hit points. This method, however, gives the player more to do (decide when to utilize a resource), and players clearly seems to love having levers and knobs to pull, even if the result is the same.

Quote from: Brand55;964224At lower levels, Goodberry also provides by far the best healing in the game from Life Clerics who have gained access to it, so much so that a DM will likely have to adjust encounter frequency to account for it.

Quote from: Omega;964236Dont allow optional variant humans and access to feats that allow that?

Or simply say, "seriously guys, that +3 to amount healed was undoubtedly intended for a rolled total. I don't care if the designers have turned around and given it the okay. The answer is no."  It's an exploit born of how two separate abilities were worded. Just say no, and don't bother with banning races, feats, or multiclassing to get rid of it.

Quote from: Omega;9642281: Darts, throwing daggers, wacking someone with a long stick is not useless. I was also the group mapper and negitiator. And as mentioned in other threads, the UNDEAD KING! :cool:

2: Since when? In AD&D at low levels a MU has only a little less than a fighter or cleric for a to hit. In BX a magic user and a fighter use the same to hit till level 3. The big difference is the fighter leaps ahead really fast. My AD&D magic user threw darts, lots of darts. That was still relatively the same even in 2e. A 5th level Fighter has a to hit of 16 and the Wizard a 19. Past that though the fighter pulls way ahead. But the wizard isnt useless in combat. Just not as spectacular as the fighter, which is as it should be.

Quote from: fearsomepirateWith weapon specialization, the 2e fighter would have a THAC0 of 15 by then. Of course, in 5e, a cantrip does about half the damage of a standard weapon attack. I think people used to AD&D see the d8 for Ray of Frost and think it's equivalent to a sword, forgetting that in the WotC editions, about half the damage of an attack will come from your ability modifier. 5e cantrips really are a lot cooler on paper than in practice.

Quote from: Headless;964273Which brings up another thing.  Why not have your wizard take a short bow? Its more damage, or could be.  They have the same to-hit as a fighter.  And it doesn't turn your casters into spaming pew-pewers.  

I really hate the at will pew-pews.  

Actually I may house rule that if you cast a damage cantrip you have to say pew-pew.

Okay, so magic users have always been second tier, but thoroughly acceptable ranged combatants, and the 5e cantrips aren't really that awesome anyways? Do I have that right? So what the heck is the actual problem here? Some people think a wizard throwing fire bolts is more iconic to the game, some think them using darts or a short bow is more iconic to the game, and in this edition, the wizard can do either, with little change in effectiveness. I really do not see a problem at all.

If the Goodberry Life bonus is kicking your ass, just put on the Viking Hat, remind people this isn't 4th Edition or Warhammer 40k, you're not going to let interaction of metadata tags destroy your game and GM the problem.

1. The bonus obviously was never meant to add +3 to Goodberry.  It creates an item and is not a "healing spell".
2. Sure, but you can't use a Berry, it has to be a "god-appropriate fruit", like an apple, pomegranate or portobello mushroom.
3. Everyone keeps whining, ok, there is no Goodberry spell.

Pick one, or if you must, let them pick one.