Quote from: Krimson;961618I sometimes have to remind my players that fleeing is an option. I have thought about incorporating morale, which I used to use often when I played 2e. The look on the player's faces when they charge into an encounter, and the monster just turns tail and books it out of there. I guess I might need to work out something for the inevitable chases that will happen.

You might be able to tweak the Low Fantasy Gaming improv chase table to your liking (free PDF, OGL)

Quote from: Psikerlord;961766You might be able to tweak the Low Fantasy Gaming improv chase table to your liking (free PDF, OGL)

You forget I bought a print copy when it came out?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;961742I remember 2e having a similar mechanic, and most modern gamers tend to think that way.

That's what HP cushions and Rank Order (formations) were for! Yup, free attacks are the consequence of getting up in someone's face and getting aggro, and suddenly finding out you bit off more than you can chew. That distance roll really didn't get into single digit feet of your squishiest companions lest your party decided to take significant risks on: enclosed spaces, lighting, caution, formation, etc. And even then, you still had a decent chance on posture, reaction tables, and gifts/bribes.

High risk, high aggro posture better back that shit up or get ready to lose its lunch. C'est la vie. And if at worst you get a free attack or two running for your life, you got off lucky.

(But yes, modern gamers have been trained to expect all fights are fights to the death. It's almost like they're poorly socialized and not been in a wide range of social environments where your mouth better not write checks its ass cannot back up. Which also might explain in part the internet's fight to the death argumentativeness. When you're within fist reach, courtesy suddenly becomes paramount.)

Quote from: Krimson;961771You forget I bought a print copy when it came out?

LOL!

Quote from: Opaopajr;961772That's what HP cushions and Rank Order (formations) were for! Yup, free attacks are the consequence of getting up in someone's face and getting aggro, and suddenly finding out you bit off more than you can chew. That distance roll really didn't get into single digit feet of your squishiest companions lest your party decided to take significant risks on: enclosed spaces, lighting, caution, formation, etc. And even then, you still had a decent chance on posture, reaction tables, and gifts/bribes.

High risk, high aggro posture better back that shit up or get ready to lose its lunch. C'est la vie. And if at worst you get a free attack or two running for your life, you got off lucky.

(But yes, modern gamers have been trained to expect all fights are fights to the death. It's almost like they're poorly socialized and not been in a wide range of social environments where your mouth better not write checks its ass cannot back up. Which also might explain in part the internet's fight to the death argumentativeness. When you're within fist reach, courtesy suddenly becomes paramount.)

Now that I think about it, would an Attack of Opportunity even be necessary? Okay, so the encounter has happened which means initiative has been rolled right? So the fleeing party that lost their morale roll is using their actions to book it out of there, but the other party still gets their actions do they not? So why would you need an attack of opportunity if you can just use your attack? That's pretty much what we did in 1e. If someone disengages you don't say to the players, "He has disengaged and is out of range." That's silly unless the baddie has levels of Monk or is a Quickling or something. You say, "Roll to hit."

Now that I think about it, why would you need a Disengage either? Yes, I know I suggested it myself. But your character already has a move rate, and I'd probably consider letting a character use their attack as a move action, though... I think 1e had move rules I like. One thing I do know is that I don't want to replace a mechanic that already exists with the obvious exception of the Mentzer Chart and maybe morale just because it seems to make sense to cover both topics.

Wait.. This isn't the thread where I'm writing an RPG. I'm just making a DM tool. So I don't have to worry about how the baddie decides to turn tail and run, I just have to say that it's the baddie's intent to get out of there and let DM using it work out the rest. Though this is some nice food for thought. Maybe morale could be covered in situational modifiers for the chart, based on things like size and temperment and other factors. Or I could do something really simple, especially since the d20 version is intended for 5e, and just make it some sort of saving throw like Fear.

Quote from: Krimson;961784Now that I think about it, would an Attack of Opportunity even be necessary? Okay, so the encounter has happened which means initiative has been rolled right? So the fleeing party that lost their morale roll is using their actions to book it out of there, but the other party still gets their actions do they not? So why would you need an attack of opportunity if you can just use your attack? That's pretty much what we did in 1e. If someone disengages you don't say to the players, "He has disengaged and is out of range." That's silly unless the baddie has levels of Monk or is a Quickling or something. You say, "Roll to hit."

The difference is that with an Attack of Opportunity, it is triggered as soon as the opponent declares they are fleeing. You don't actually need to chase them to get that attack. In B/X, where there are no AoO, the fleeing enemy moves on their action, and if you want to attack on your action next action(with a +2 bonus), you need to actually chase them.

Quote from: Baulderstone;961789...you need to actually chase them.

It is more fun that way. That and, it also means the monsters have to chase you.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;961762As long as you understand that unless you spell it out, us idiots won't figure out that we can try to escape a fight.

I read about this attitude a lot online, but have never seen it in my own games. Running away from a losing battle seems to come naturally to most people.

Maybe it helps that in my games monsters often flee (often successfully), so it's apparent to players that their PCs could do the same. And high level PCs often have many tools to assist in retreating, eg last Sunday my 5e group retreated from some overpowered demon-deinonychuses by using Dimension Door and Wall of Stone to prevent pursuit.

Quote from: Opaopajr;961772(But yes, modern gamers have been trained to expect all fights are fights to the death. It's almost like they're poorly socialized and not been in a wide range of social environments where your mouth better not write checks its ass cannot back up.

Do children not fight at school anymore?! :confused: Sic tempora sic morales

Quote from: S'mon;961818I read about this attitude a lot online, but have never seen it in my own games. Running away from a losing battle seems to come naturally to most people.

But real life has people moving at different speeds.  In most D&D games most of the monsters can keep up with you, indefinitely.  Some can even overtake you, and worse, some can fly and cut off most avenues of escape.

Often, I've noticed over the years, is that players consider fleeing when they're very low on resources, like low HP and spells.  That's usually a bad call.

Quote from: S'mon;961818Maybe it helps that in my games monsters often flee (often successfully), so it's apparent to players that their PCs could do the same. And high level PCs often have many tools to assist in retreating, eg last Sunday my 5e group retreated from some overpowered demon-deinonychuses by using Dimension Door and Wall of Stone to prevent pursuit.

Not every one has a high level caster in their party.  Clerics don't have that many utility spells of that nature.  My current home game has no Wizard, so that technique is unavailable.

Quote from: S'mon;961819Do children not fight at school anymore?! :confused: Sic tempora sic morales

Not really, but the reason is political, so I'm leaving it at that.

Uh, movement rate is not an infinite supply of: Rage (morale), Constitution (or for mobs, Hit Die equivalents... or Morale), Safe Haven/Territory, etc. Not every encounter is going to be with robotic Terminators. Well, not if the GM is worth even a lone grain of salt.
:rolleyes:

Strawman terminator monsters are strawman terminator monsters. But yes, WotC D&D did end up with extremely bad gameplay assumptions. Maybe it's that game's lack of advice? Maybe it's the prevalent culture of pre-teen mentality? Who knows?

Quote from: Krimson;961784Now that I think about it, would an Attack of Opportunity even be necessary? Okay, so the encounter has happened which means initiative has been rolled right? So the fleeing party that lost their morale roll is using their actions to book it out of there, but the other party still gets their actions do they not? So why would you need an attack of opportunity if you can just use your attack? That's pretty much what we did in 1e. If someone disengages you don't say to the players, "He has disengaged and is out of range." That's silly unless the baddie has levels of Monk or is a Quickling or something. You say, "Roll to hit."

Now that I think about it, why would you need a Disengage either? Yes, I know I suggested it myself. But your character already has a move rate, and I'd probably consider letting a character use their attack as a move action, though... I think 1e had move rules I like. One thing I do know is that I don't want to replace a mechanic that already exists with the obvious exception of the Mentzer Chart and maybe morale just because it seems to make sense to cover both topics.

Wait.. This isn't the thread where I'm writing an RPG. I'm just making a DM tool. So I don't have to worry about how the baddie decides to turn tail and run, I just have to say that it's the baddie's intent to get out of there and let DM using it work out the rest. Though this is some nice food for thought. Maybe morale could be covered in situational modifiers for the chart, based on things like size and temperment and other factors. Or I could do something really simple, especially since the d20 version is intended for 5e, and just make it some sort of saving throw like Fear.

Just because there's an opportunity doesn't mean it must be taken. That's the very basis of all this RPG play, risk assessment and conservation of resources. A free attack after proving your point from being deliberately threatened doesn't necessarily mean it's worth it. Even low sentience animals make these assessments after being ambushed or cornered and then thwarting an attacker.

Basic life paradigms, people. It's not that hard.

Quote from: Opaopajr;961860Uh, movement rate is not an infinite supply of: Rage (morale), Constitution (or for mobs, Hit Die equivalents... or Morale), Safe Haven/Territory, etc. Not every encounter is going to be with robotic Terminators. Well, not if the GM is worth even a lone grain of salt.

To back up your point, this thread started as a discussion of the Reaction Table, and that table presents opponents that are more likely to be cautious than to immediately attack. Unless the GM rolled a 2 on a 2d6 for an Immediate Attack result, it seems likely to me that they will consider retreating PCs to be a win condition and let the battle end there.

Obviously, roleplaying assumptions override random Reaction Tables. If the PCs just stole a sacred relic from a temple, then the guards will probably pursue until they catch the PCs or the PCs drop the relic. Still, the table makes it clear that NPCs/Monsters generally looking to fight simply for the sake of fighting.

Quote from: Opaopajr;961861Just because there's an opportunity doesn't mean it must be taken. That's the very basis of all this RPG play, risk assessment and conservation of resources. A free attack after proving your point from being deliberately threatened doesn't necessarily mean it's worth it. Even low sentience animals make these assessments after being ambushed or cornered and then thwarting an attacker.

Basic life paradigms, people. It's not that hard.

The way I see it, why add another mechanic when there is already a mechanic there that lets you take a shot at your opponent? I'd prefer to limit free shots to surprise rounds.

Quote from: Baulderstone;961868To back up your point, this thread started as a discussion of the Reaction Table, and that table presents opponents that are more likely to be cautious than to immediately attack. Unless the GM rolled a 2 on a 2d6 for an Immediate Attack result, it seems likely to me that they will consider retreating PCs to be a win condition and let the battle end there.

Obviously, roleplaying assumptions override random Reaction Tables. If the PCs just stole a sacred relic from a temple, then the guards will probably pursue until they catch the PCs or the PCs drop the relic. Still, the table makes it clear that NPCs/Monsters generally looking to fight simply for the sake of fighting.

Some creatures will be more aggressive and some will be less so. Some monsters are stupid eating machines, or mindless undead, and some are more intelligent creatures who have some value to their continued existence. Villains wouldn't be suicidal unless there was something that worried them more. For the most part, the table will be for the first part of the encounter to set the tone. I was going through the RC a bit last night so the Chapter on Evasion might be something to implement as well.