How do you handle this sort of thing? If a character fails at their detect traps check (assuming that doesn't itself trigger a trap), or at some kind of knowledge check, or at searching, or opening a lock, or whatever else: when do you let them try again, if ever? How do you decide that a failure means they just can't figure it out ever, and/or how do you let them try again?

On a related note, how would you justify someone trying a skill check again once without having to allow them to just keep trying until they succeed?

This is all assuming skill checks that have no particular consequence for failure other than not getting what they wanted; i.e., no monsters attack, no traps go off, no external time limit to figure things out, etc.

Quote from: RPGPundit;958738How do you handle this sort of thing?

These days? Never. Characters don't get to repeat a "turn." And if it's no consequence, no skill roll is needed.

There's always a consequence to a failed attempt to actively use a skill, even if it's just the passage of time, which, in turn, means random encounter checks (if in a place where that's a possibility), need to eat/drink/sleep sooner, etc., even if there's not a hard deadline as such.

As for trying again, that's mostly a matter of changing the situation in some way to improve the chance of success.  If you can't pick the lock by yourself, maybe having someone else help will make a difference, so I'd allow a reroll then, at least as long as it doesn't become SOP to first do everything alone instead of getting the help you need from the start.

But I don't allow that to be deliberately exploited.  If you start with trying to pick the lock one-handed while standing on your head and blindfolded, I'm going to tell you not to be a jackass instead of letting you keep rerolling with one adverse factor removed each time.

1: The main question is. Is whats happening something that would logically allow a retry. And factoring in how a skill is even used.
Such as the trap. The PC/Player botches a check and for whatever reason the trap has a delay. Then maybe they get a check to see the thing arming or about to release. Otherwise no. Its an immediate thing that should be one shot. They failed, they dont know the things there and so they trigger it.

Or with say a crafting endeavor. A botch sometimes means you have to start over from scratch. I should know. I've had to! Other times a both means you can still try. Or maybe a botch means you dont even notice the flaw till its too late.

2: Again. Depends on the endeavor? Say you are carving a figurine from a gem. One botch and its ruined. No retries. But say you are working clay? A botch and you can retry, possibly more than once. Or say you are trying to leap across a chasm and fail. Maybe you get one chance to grab the edge?

3: If theres no consequence of failure then why even have checks? Id only have a check when it matters. If theres unlimited time then it boils down to skill level and/or persistence. Or materials. Assuming unlimited materials then eventually the jobs done. It might take longer than expected. But it got done.

RL example: Im working with polymer clay making a figurine. If I botch some element then I can just smooth it out and try again. And again, and again. The end product is determined by my overall skill where as each step I might fail somewhere and have to smooth out and try again, assuming I even notice a flaw.

But if I screw up the baking process then that it. And some of my early tries thats where I screwed up and theres no undoing it.

X: which brings up a factor that can be used. Say you botch one of the tries but succeed the next? Then you've introduced some flaw into the process and the end result is less than perfect. The sculpture is lopsided. You missed the jump but caught the edge. You baked the G out of the GID! ARRRGH! (did that... ARRRGH!)

A skill roll represents a best effort. Circumstances need to change before another roll can happen. A character can get assistance if that is possible (depends on the skill) and perhaps try again, or can gain more proficiency in the skill then attempt another roll.

Detecting traps is something that doesn't make sense to re-attempt. If you you make your best effort to detect a trap and find nothing why would you keep trying? If there is no trap to find then you are in an endless loop searching for something that doesn't exist. This is why rolls of this type should always be made by the DM. A player rolls 00% or a 1 on a d20 and knows that they failed. When the DM checks, the player is never sure if there is nothing to find or if the character merely failed, which is the position the character would actually find him/her self in.

In the example Omega gave regarding working with clay, I wouldn't even call for a skill roll until it was time to bake the finished product. The old D&D rules regarding crafting potions worked much the same way. The character expended X of amount of gold, and took the required time and then rolled to determine success. There might have been minor slip ups and corrections during the process but the dice are for the end results.

Beyond all that, common sense should prevail. If a task is simple enough and there is no penalty for repeated attempts then assume success and don't waste game time. Other tasks come with no do-overs. You only get one chance to make a first impression. That is one reason I'm such a fan of the old B/X reaction rolls.

Quote from: RPGPundit;958738This is all assuming skill checks that have no particular consequence for failure other than not getting what they wanted; i.e., no monsters attack, no traps go off, no external time limit to figure things out, etc.

In those cases, I let the players roll not to see if they succeed, but to see how long it takes. One roll, the better, the faster. Only if the player rolls a botch (if there are botch rules), he doesn't succeed and can't try again.

My rule of thumb has been that the player can try again when they can arrange the situation such that they would receive a bonus to the roll normally such as taking additional time, getting assistance, better tools, etc. Its a case by case thing and sense should prevail. In the rare instance of a truly stress and consequence free task then I'd just rule the character will succeed in an amount of time based on the margin of success or failure of the original roll, perhaps with a critical failure indicating some disaster the prevents them from succeeding at all if that would make things more interesting.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;958748In the example Omega gave regarding working with clay, I wouldn't even call for a skill roll until it was time to bake the finished product.

Sculpting clay and baking clay are rather different skill checks as it were. That was the point. The sculpting part you can botch and retry. The baking you pretty much get only one try at.

Quote from: RPGPundit;958738How do you handle this sort of thing? If a character fails at their detect traps check (assuming that doesn't itself trigger a trap), or at some kind of knowledge check, or at searching, or opening a lock, or whatever else: when do you let them try again, if ever? How do you decide that a failure means they just can't figure it out ever, and/or how do you let them try again?

On a related note, how would you justify someone trying a skill check again once without having to allow them to just keep trying until they succeed?

This is all assuming skill checks that have no particular consequence for failure other than not getting what they wanted; i.e., no monsters attack, no traps go off, no external time limit to figure things out, etc.

Depends on the thing. I use the thoughtful guidelines on this subject in TFT & GURPS. For something like lockpicking, it's expected there may be multiple attempts. Each successive attempt is harder than the first, as it's been established that the character has been having problems and may be on the wrong track. Each re-try corresponds to an amount of time spent, and has an increasing risk of crit fail which indicates either consequence (e.g. you make noise, which may or may not matter), or mess up what you're working on (e,g,broken lock or lockpick)), or that you're stuck in an un-working state of mind (which the GM generally doesn't tell the PC, because the GM is rolling hidden for them, but for that result, the PC might be able to try again after sleeping on it or something when they have a fresh state of mind).

Some things may be more difficult or even impossible (usually because of consequences) to re-try.

Other things should be re-try-able without penalty (e.g. trying to hit something - unless e.g. you run out of ammo or it hits back...)

That is, it can be interesting to design for repeated attempts to be expected and lead to a variety of interesting results. But it also takes a bit of statistics to not make weird gamey situations.

Quote from: RPGPundit;958738How do you handle this sort of thing? If a character fails at their detect traps check (assuming that doesn't itself trigger a trap), or at some kind of knowledge check, or at searching, or opening a lock, or whatever else: when do you let them try again, if ever? How do you decide that a failure means they just can't figure it out ever, and/or how do you let them try again?

If they spend a Hero Point then they can try a reroll or another roll.

Quote from: RPGPundit;958738On a related note, how would you justify someone trying a skill check again once without having to allow them to just keep trying until they succeed?

If they spend enough Hero Points they can reroll until they succeed, that is fine by me.

This is what I do.  Some skill checks are still successful on failed rolls, it just means there's a complication that happens:  You alert the palace, it takes too much time, the trap goes off anyway, things that keep the game moving and interesting for the players and don't make them spin their wheels and feel pointless.

But really, like all things RPG, it's a judgement call.  Sometimes a door just won't open and you need to go around instead.

Sometimes failing can lead to an adventure instead of additional attempts...say your wizard or smartest party member fails her attempt to decipher an ancient map, maybe her knowledge is insufficient and no additional tries are possible and you need to go find Humberto the Hermit Sage known for his knowledge of forgotten tongues and convince/entice/bribe/force him to translate it...and so on.

In many cases, they can try again when they gain a level.

Let's say the treasure chest is trapped and Pinky the Thief is checking it out.

1) Pinky gets a Detect Traps roll when checking the chest.
2) If Pinky doesn't find the Trap or if he finds the Trap, but fails the Disarm, he gets a Save vs. Death / Poison / Magic (whatever the trap might be).

This is why I don't worry about deadly traps. There are multiple rolls / options before the Big Trouble hits, and even then there is a saving throw.

However, if Pinky wants to check for traps again before opening the chest, that's cool too. However, he is spending valuable time and I am rolling for wandering monsters.

Time is a valuable resource, sometimes more valuable than HP.

Time.  And maybe consquences.

For example when searching.  

First roll you find it quick with minimum disrubtion.  "I think I left my keys in my coat pocket, yep they are there." or maybe its in your other coat but you find it fast and easy.  

Second roll is more systematic.  "Ok, not my coat.  Maybe my pants?  Night stand? Still in the lock?  The 6 other places around the house I sometimes leave them?"  so it takes longer and things get moved around.  Meaning your wife is going to want you to clean up, or the mark will know his room has been searched.  

Third try, systematicly go through everything.  This will take a long time and will be increadibly obvious and take a long time to clean up after.

I also don't have people roll for trivial tasks.  I like the Idea that a failed roll can still succeed but with consequences.  Keep the game moving.