Quote from: AsenRG;955022You stated, AFAICT, that "power" isn't that important since the challenge is going to be tailored to the PCs anyway, as if it's a non-controversial fact. I reminded you that this is against the playstyle that many people on this site abhor:).

The power level of the PCs still isn't a concern in that case either They can be mighty or mighty sad.  Either way the pursuit of "power" in char gen seems futile due to the nature of the game and gm choices.

Though I'd imagine in the most boxy of Sandboxes, there will be some degree of threat management and placement. Just explicit setting "level ups" as the characters progress or fenced off zones like some MMOs. Its a world do what you want but its not totally random. If you want your Noobie Adventurers to take on Lichicus Maximus on Day One, got for it. The Tower of Ultimate Despair is right over there. But he's not going to arbitrarily cross their paths while they're clearing out a nest of goblins in the city sewers on pure happenstance despite such an event being theoretically possible in a "real world". *

*Of course, some body probably does play that way.

tl;dr: Trying to outgun the GM with clever char generation is pretty pointless in most playstyles.

Quote from: AsenRG;955017We're here to discuss RPGs, are we not? And some of us might value both the "discuss" and "RPGs" parts about equally;)!

Not to mention those that seem to think that people are here for abuse instead of arguing.

Quote from: Catelf;955015Did I SAY it was a direct competition?

The problem is that "snowflake" is used as a derogatory when it doesn't have to be.

Come to think of it. Playing RPGs is a bit "snowflakey" to begin with

Quote from: Nexus;955004
Edit: Admittedly, the "Point Buy: Threat or Menace?" nature of the OP certainly didn't start things off on a level headed footing.

It was a Pundit post. I assume anyone who replies assumes the question was asked in way designed generated lots of responses, conflict, and site traffic. Your best bet for level-headedness is to quit reading any thread within the first dozen posts. :cool:

Quote from: Catelf;955023There seems to be a few points that has been noted here:
* "Special snowflakes" are far more common in fiction than some in this thread seem to realize, and when you play an rpg, you very often want to emulate them, and not a redshirt in Star Trek, a non-descript warrior in LotR, or some such.
* An Adventurer may be Conscript-like, or Mercenaries, or anything inbetween. This may be reached both by point-buy and random rolls, although minimum requirements are needed for Mercenaries in both cases.
*"Shopkeepers" may be discarded or kept as NPC's. (They might even have been adventures once, before ... (insert meme).)

...I'm getting off track here.
"Special snowflake" characters are no problem.
Heck, in his own way, that "Fritz" character is a special snowflake in his own way, even though he were randomly rolled to be sub-par and sub-mediocre.
The question is:
Do the character fit both the player and the setting?
If yes, there is no arguing.
If no, then tweaks are in order, within the rules, until it works well enough.
If tweaks do not fix it, then there are other problems, with the Player and/or the GM/DM/ST/Referee that simply can not be fixed at the table!

Fun fact: if Fritz survives, he'd fit the literary definition of a Marty Stu. He's the weak guy who survives great dangers that would have destroyed far stronger people 9and in old D&D, got rich from adventuring;))!

Quote from: Nexus;955025The power level of the PCs still isn't a concern in that case either They can be mighty or mighty sad.  Either way the pursuit of "power" in char gen seems futile due to the nature of the game and gm choices.

Though I'd imagine in the most boxy of Sandboxes, there will be some degree of threat management and placement. Just explicit setting "level ups" as the characters progress or fenced off zones like some MMOs. Its a world do what you want but its not totally random. If you want your Noobie Adventurers to take on Lichicus Maximus on Day One, got for it. The Tower of Ultimate Despair is right over there. But he's not going to arbitrarily cross their paths while they're clearing out a nest of goblins in the city sewers on pure happenstance despite such an event being theoretically possible in a "real world". *

*Of course, some body probably does play that way.

tl;dr: Trying to outgun the GM with clever char generation is pretty pointless in most playstyles.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about outgunning the GM. It's outgunning the other players that might be a problem, or not reaching the level of the other players. Imagine someone who tries to make a slow, though warrior in Exalted only to find out everyone else is Dex 5 with two medium weapons:p!

Quote from: Catelf;955026Not to mention those that seem to think that people are here for abuse instead of arguing.

We have all kinds of funny individuals, indeed:D!

Quote from: Catelf;955026Not to mention those that seem to think that people are here for abuse instead of arguing.

You want room 12A, next door.

Quote from: nDervish;954992What about the argument that point-buy doesn't provide a level playing field, but instead tends to reward system mastery and penalize the lack of same?

Quote from: nDervish;954992Assuming nobody is using loaded dice, fudging rolls, etc., I find random chargen to be completely fair.  Everyone has the same chance of rolling a 3 or an 18 as anyone else does.

Quote from: nDervish;954992Adventurers may effectively be special forces.  They may be conscripts.  Neither is necessarily the case.  You prefer to play character who are special forces from day one, I prefer to play conscripts who, over time, may or may not grow into a special forces role, if they survive that long.

Worth repeating.

Quote from: Catelf;955023Special snowflakes" are far more common in fiction than some in this thread seem to realize, and when you play an rpg, you very often want to emulate them, and not a redshirt in Star Trek, a non-descript warrior in LotR, or some such.

nDervish's last point goes to this: if I play my character well and Fate is kind, then my character may become a special snowflake. Until then, he's just this guy, y'know?

Let's face it: regardless of creation method, all characters are snowflakes, or snowflakes-in-waiting. Until they're dead, of course.:-)

Quote from: cranebump;955049Let's face it: regardless of creation method, all characters are snowflakes, or snowflakes-in-waiting. Until they're dead, of course.:-)

And then they're...melted snowflakes...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]846[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Nexus;955052And then they're...melted snowflakes...

Oh, what a world! What a world!

(So, new character. Point buy?):-)

It highly depends on the system as well. If you're playing some TSR D&D variant, monster saving throws aren't affected by your ability scores, and your THAC0 will scale just fine as long as you aren't taking a penalty. So you can be Fritz and still be fine. You won't be attracting a large body of followers, but the game is playable. In the WotC variants, if you've got ability scores of 9 straight through, the dice will catch up to you. It might be amusing at first, but eventually, not hitting attacks, failing saves, and being useless on skill checks will stop being fun. That's why I prefer random point-buy for my 5e games. You've got the randomness, but the most mediocre you can get is 13/13/13/12/12/12, which is still an entirely playable array.

Random generation or point buy system both involve some system mastery at some point. Having a system beyond "flip a coin" rewards system mastery (and I'm almost certain some smartass will point out how someone could game that. ). The argument you can make is that system mastery can be learned,taught or assisted. You can't learn to have better luck bur no, Point buy doesn't ensure an even playing field. It still takes gm management but, IME, it does make it easier if that's the goal.

As for playing "some guy" or "special forces" from thwe beginning, that boils down to preferences again. But using point buy doesn't guarantee the PCs are any more potent than random extra #252 just that they're more likely to be the type of character the player had in mind (if they had one). Preferring point buy isn't about being more uber than everyone else for allot of people.

Quote from: AsenRG;955045Yeah, but I'm not talking about outgunning the GM. It's outgunning the other players that might be a problem, or not reaching the level of the other players. Imagine someone who tries to make a slow, though warrior in Exalted only to find out everyone else is Dex 5 with two medium weapons:p!

Yeah but interplayer dick measuring wasn't what my point was addressing and your counterargument appeared to be focused on gming styles not player rivalries.

Quote from: noman;954418Not a fan of random rolls.  If I have the opportunity to play in a OSR game, and the GM wants his old-school rolls, then so be it.  His table, his rules.  If I end up with eights in every attribute, I'll be playing Fritz, the delusional hobo, who believes he's a Palladin of the Sacred Temple of Genre.  If he gets geeked, no biggie.  Just a game.

I normally run OD&D (Brown Box/White Box from the mid-1970s) variants and I usually have players roll 3d6 in order. Then they can swap two rolls between attributes if they wish. Attribute bonuses and penalties are modest:

3-5 = -1
6-14 = +0
15-17 = +1
18 = +2

In my system Fritz would be no better or worse attribute bonus-wise than a character with all 14s. The difference between a 3 and an 18 is only 15% better on rolls. Attributes just are not that important in this system. Regardless of attributes, any character can be any of the four main classes (cleric, fighter, magic-user or thief). Attribute restrictions are reserved for classes that are relatively rare in the setting (like ranger or paladin).  The Intelligence attribute is a measure of a PC's perception, intuition, formal education and knowledge and not a measure of how smart the PC is – as a PC's wit and cleverness are that of the player. (For NPCs and monsters, however, INT is also a measure of raw "smarts"). While Fritz could not actually be a Paladin, he could certainly be a capable character who believes he was called by his deity to do the work of a paladin. If he took cleric as his class but called himself a paladin, chances are most of the common people in the world would have no reason to doubt him provided he acted as they believe a paladin would.

I find this system solves most of the common objections (beyond "I just don't like random rolls") to random attributes.

Quote from: Nexus;955057Yeah but interplayer dick measuring wasn't what my point was addressing and your counterargument appeared to be focused on gming styles not player rivalries.

OK, it seems I'm not communicating my point well enough when I'm sick, so I'll excuse myself from the thread and come back to it when I feel better.