Quote from: Tetsubo;954953Adventurers are effectively special forces units. They are not conscripts. Random generation is conscripts. You go adventuring not with the team you want but the team you have. I want special forces units. I don't think that is unreasonable.

There is no reason for adventurers to be special forces units - especially at low levels. They certainly can be fantasy superheroes. That's a whole genre of its own. I play 4e and its definitely fantasy special forces from Day 1.

But that's not zero-to-hero which is what early D&D, Gamma World, RuneQuest, CoC, T&T, etc was about.

The majority of the early games were about rolling a bunch of dice and PART OF THE FUN was figuring out WTF to do with your rolls.

That's a feature, not a bug.
But its not for everyone, nor does it need to be.  

Quote from: Tetsubo;954953And I shouldn't be judged for that choice. But I am, constantly.

We all have our cross to bear.

Quote from: Tetsubo;954954If the player wants to play X they should get to play X.

That's certainly one way to play. There are plenty of those games out there, and all others are easy to houserule to do that.

But in my experience, I find that method produces bland characters most of the time. Not always, just most.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954972I've never met the human being without a fault or two, so the question is: Which faults can I deal with, which can I turn into non-issues, and which are going to kill my enthusiasm for running a game? Every time I designate a fault as 'asshat,' I narrow my pool of potential players, and if I demand faultlessness I'll have nobody to game with except myself. So we all have our priorities.

The asshats who shit themselves during chargen don't magically become good players when other randomness shows up - like bad saving throws, bad combats, etc.  Their min/max +10 bonus doesn't do squat when they roll a 2 vs. a TN 14.

Quote from: CRKrueger;954986Or I guess everyone should just play with a full statline of 18s?  In fact, you know, they win...what's the next game?

Here's the joke. In most OSR stuff, that's +3 to all D20 rolls. AKA, the best stats possible is only a 15% bump vs. a normal dude and a 30% bump vs. a mook with all 3s.

Let's give'em max HP at 1st level so Fighter with 13 or Barbarian with 15?  Now what? If he enters combat and rolls badly while his opponents roll well, Mr. Perfect Statline is splattered and the player must commence their mandatory crying.

It's why 2D10 is better math, but its slower and less exciting than D20.

Also why stats in GURPS are more meaningful than most other RPGs. 3D6 enforces averages more than 2D10 and hugely more than D20.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954948I can come up with endless analogies. Shaming gamers who want a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming a casual poker player who wants to start with the same number of equally valueless chips as his friends. Shaming gamers who want a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming hobbyists who want an equal stake in the bullets they chipped in equally for, the yarn they chipped in equally for, etc..

What about the argument that point-buy doesn't provide a level playing field, but instead tends to reward system mastery and penalize the lack of same?  (Hell, with their admitted inclusion of "trap options", D&D3 was deliberately intended to give unfair advantages to those who weren't aware of the traps!)

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954948One of the most common and strongest of human values is that of fairness -- insofar as being fair to others is feasible, we teach kids to do so, and we often shame and judge harshly adults who act unfairly in the face of self-interest or when it conflicts with other values. Anecdotally, there is exactly one activity I can think of where being fair is automatically 100% worthy of ridicule, and that activity is nothing like any rpg. One of the big appeals of point buy is that it introduces more fairness to the chargen process.

Assuming nobody is using loaded dice, fudging rolls, etc., I find random chargen to be completely fair.  Everyone has the same chance of rolling a 3 or an 18 as anyone else does.

I imagine your response will be that it's still unfair that the player who rolls well will have an enduring advantage for as long as the characters survive.  While it is true that any single instance of random chargen will produce advantages for some players and disadvantages for others, over the course of multiple sets of characters, it tends to even out.  Unlike point-buy systems, where the high-system-mastery player will reliably have an enduring advantage over the low-system-mastery player every single time.  You're free to disagree, of course, but, personally, it feels more fair to me if either of us has an equal chance to have an advantage than if I know, even before we start making characters, that you're going to have an advantage every time.

Quote from: Tetsubo;954953Adventurers are effectively special forces units. They are not conscripts.

Adventurers may effectively be special forces.  They may be conscripts.  Neither is necessarily the case.  You prefer to play character who are special forces from day one, I prefer to play conscripts who, over time, may or may not grow into a special forces role, if they survive that long.

Quote from: AsenRG;954987Yet you never hear people complaining about low HD rolls on forums. Sometimes I wonder why.

That's an easy one:  In the last couple editions of D&D, you automatically get maximum HP at level 1 by RAW, and this was a common house rule even before it became official.  If you're not rolling for HP, then you can't roll low.

Quote from: nDervish;954992That's an easy one:  In the last couple editions of D&D, you automatically get maximum HP at level 1 by RAW, and this was a common house rule even before it became official.  If you're not rolling for HP, then you can't roll low.

Sounds likely:).

Quote from: CRKrueger;954986So when we play a TOS Federation campaign, I guess we'll do it aboard the U.S.S. Snowflake with a Q Captain, an Organian Doctor, Gorn First Officer, Borg Science Officer, Romulan Engineer, Klingon Security Officer, and Medusan Navigator.

Or I guess everyone should just play with a full statline of 18s?  In fact, you know, they win...what's the next game?

Or maybe you actually meant players should be able to play characters allowed within the logic of the setting and the campaign?

So if certain races are extremely rare in the campaign and must be qualified for with a very rare roll, or certain classes, social statuses, cultures, whatever are adequately represented through randomness, thus keeping the integrity of the setting intact, that's less important than fulfilling a player's every wish?

And yet another strawman is thrown into this fire.  Two different ideas, if one is going to play in a Original Series Star Trek, then everyone has likely bought into the setting.  In fact, most people WANT to play an 'approved' race because it's Star Trek.  But that still has nothing to do with random rolls being better than point buy.

Quote from: AsenRG;954987You two are talking about what's important, and you probably value the same things, but you shouldn't expect everyone to value the same things equally Green One;)!

Hell, you could call the Enterprise the USS "Special Snowflake"...

Its odd to assume that because some people want to enter a rpg with a character they want to play rather than what the dice hand them they're motivated by need for "power" (whatever the Hell that means in a game where the gm sets the challenge level to the fit the PCs anyway) or "special snowflakeness" (which always struck me as an odd notion but that's another flame inducing topic).

If a group likes having their characters determined by the dice and seeing what happens, fine. If they want to design their characters in an organized fashion that's fine. Most games are somewhere between the two, few are purely random and few are "Pick anything you want."  Its games, play them how you enjoy them. There's no moral, ethical, virility or whatever weight attached to the choice of how you play Let's Pretend.

Edit: Admittedly, the "Point Buy: Threat or Menace?" nature of the OP certainly didn't start things off on a level headed footing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;955002And yet another strawman is thrown into this fire.  Two different ideas, if one is going to play in a Original Series Star Trek, then everyone has likely bought into the setting.  In fact, most people WANT to play an 'approved' race because it's Star Trek.  But that still has nothing to do with random rolls being better than point buy.

I mean you could call the Enterprise the USS "Special Snowflake" from its first appearance. Allot of the characters were pretty unusual even if they weren't exceptionally "powerful" in setting terms. The generic Star Fleet Guys were usually the extras in red shirts and skirts that didn't last too long. It doesn't seem that over the top that some people want to do their Let's Pretend to be in Star Fleet in a fashion the emulates that aspect of what inspired them about the show.

Quote from: Nexus;955005I mean you could call the Enterprise the USS "Special Snowflake" from its first appearance. Allot of the characters were pretty unusual even if they weren't exceptionally "powerful" in setting terms. The generic Star Fleet Guys were usually the extras in red shirts and skirts that didn't last too long. It doesn't seem that over the top that some people want to do their Let's Pretend to be in Star Fleet in a fashion the emulates that aspect of what inspired them about the show.

If I remember correctly, didn't they lose like...  2?  Maybe 3 Constitution class battle cruisers 'on screen' and several others were lost?

I stand corrected, they lost three on screen, the Excalibur, the Defiant and the Constellation.  The Farragut was lost somewhere in space as was the Valiant before the series even started. And finally, the Intrepid was lost, and it was a crew of all Vulcans.

So about nearly half were lost, out of the 12/13 ships.  And of the remaining ones, only ONE ship actually made an impact on the galaxy at large.  The Enterprise.  Which supports your statement of the NCC-1701 being crewed by Special Snowflakes.

Quote from: AsenRG;954987I just checked my copy of OD&D, it seems to have been there from the beginning.

Thanks for the information, I guess. But as I indicated, its pretty tangential to my point: D and D's character generation platforms were random when I was trying it so I moved on.

So the red box with the dude about to killed by a dragon, Aleena the cleric, Bargle, etc is "OD and D"?

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954948Primary school education is a direct competition? :confused: Well ok, given how Republicans like to underfund classrooms and promote 'school choice'...
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What in your mind makes a cooperative hobby like D&D, or any other ttrpg, such an appropriate medium for shaming those who want more fairness, a foundational human value?

Did I SAY it was a direct competition?
I said it was SERIOUS.
Also, in a way, yes it is a competition to some, especially those that aim for high grades instead of actually LEARNING about things, but this discussion is not about the school system.

What you rather seem to be getting at, is that some seem to consider point-buy to be a vessel for creating "snowflake" characters, tailor-made characters for each player.
And it is.
The problem is that "snowflake" is used as a derogatory when it doesn't have to be.
Beyond that, no one is shaming anyone for anything here.
So your analogies are worthless, because the situation are different than you seem to assume it is.

Some prefer point-buy, some prefer rolls, some consider both fully valid, and those few that may be saying bad things about "snowflake characters" and similar .... are either nitwits or yanking your chains!
Some people do that on here to test your mettle.

As I mentioned, I PREFER POINT-BUY.
I'm just adding it again, in case you missed it.

Also, yes it is make-believe games, but that argument goes both ways.
Is there any point in arguing about it at all?
We have different ways to do things.
And some likes to argue.
That's it.

Also, if you read all comments, you'd know that this thread is, to some, only partially serious.
Someone pointed out that it was "clickbait" even.
And in a way, it is.

Quote from: Nexus;955004Its odd to assume that because some people want to enter a rpg with a character they want to play rather than what the dice hand them they're motivated by need for "power" (whatever the Hell that means in a game where the gm sets the challenge level to the fit the PCs anyway) or "special snowflakeness" (which always struck me as an odd notion but that's another flame inducing topic).

Do you remember that quite a few people don't change the challenge level to fit the PCs:p?

QuoteEdit: Admittedly, the "Point Buy: Threat or Menace?" nature of the OP certainly didn't start things off on a level headed footing.

When has Pundit started threads that were aimed at producing a level-headed discussion:D?

Quote from: Nexus;955014Thanks for the information, I guess. But ss I indicated, its pretty tangential to my point: D and D's character generation platforms were random when I was trying it so I moved on.

I got your point. You also expressed doubt that rule existed, so I checked the closest edition to it that I have access to. So it was a "you probably just forgot about it, because it didn't work for you anyway".
Which, let me remind you, is fine by me:). I was pretty firmly pro-point buy, too, at some point. I have, since then, expanded into more random generation, and discovered that as long as the GM isn't being a dick* about it, it works fine.

*"You'll play the only class you stated you don't want to play before joining, unless you qualify for another" certainly comes close in my book;). But then again, playing with dicks ain't going to result in a good game in point-buy systems, either.

QuoteSo the red box with the dude about to killed by a dragon, Aleena the cleric, Bargle, etc is "OD and D"?

Definitely not - I think that's BECMI?
Anyway, I don't have access to that edition. So, as stated above, I checked an earlier one, and concluded that it probably wasn't dropped. (I do know that it existed in B/X from playing a forum game, where the GM just informed us we can do some switching, and stated "he's going to allow it". It seems more than a few GMs didn't allow it, which might be why you didn't remember this;)).

Quote from: Catelf;955015Also, yes it is make-believe games, but that argument goes both ways.
Is there any point in arguing about it at all?
We have different ways to do things.
And some likes to argue.
That's it.

Seems like a nice summary of the thread...
Of course, it's only natural. We're here to discuss RPGs, are we not? And some of us might value both the "discuss" and "RPGs" parts about equally;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;955017Do you remember that quite a few people don't change the challenge level to fit the PCs?

What are you talking about?

QuoteWhen has Pundit started threads that were aimed at producing a level-headed discussion:D?

Beats me but this one certainly wasn't an example of it.

QuoteI got your point. You also expressed doubt that rule existed, so I checked the closest edition to it that I have access to. So it was a "you probably just forgot about it, because it didn't work for you anyway".

I said "I didn't remember it one way or the other so I'll take your word for it." I meant exactly what I said: I don't remember that, but you do so I'll go with it. You may have misread my tone. Easy enough to do in this medium.

Quote from: Nexus;955019What are you talking about?

You stated, AFAICT, that "power" isn't that important since the challenge is going to be tailored to the PCs anyway, as if it's a non-controversial fact. I reminded you that this is against the playstyle that many people on this site abhor:).

QuoteI said "I didn't remember it one way or the other so I'll take your word for it." I meant exactly what I said: I don't remember that, but you do so I'll go with it. You may have misread my tone. Easy enough to do in this medium.

Yeah, that seems to be the case;).

There seems to be a few points that has been noted here:
* "Special snowflakes" are far more common in fiction than some in this thread seem to realize, and when you play an rpg, you very often want to emulate them, and not a redshirt in Star Trek, a non-descript warrior in LotR, or some such.
* An Adventurer may be Conscript-like, or Mercenaries, or anything inbetween. This may be reached both by point-buy and random rolls, although minimum requirements are needed for Mercenaries in both cases.
*"Shopkeepers" may be discarded or kept as NPC's. (They might even have been adventures once, before ... (insert meme).)

...I'm getting off track here.
"Special snowflake" characters are no problem.
Heck, in his own way, that "Fritz" character is a special snowflake in his own way, even though he were randomly rolled to be sub-par and sub-mediocre.
The question is:
Do the character fit both the player and the setting?
If yes, there is no arguing.
If no, then tweaks are in order, within the rules, until it works well enough.
If tweaks do not fix it, then there are other problems, with the Player and/or the GM/DM/ST/Referee that simply can not be fixed at the table!

Quote from: AsenRG;955022You stated, AFAICT, that "power" isn't that important since the challenge is going to be tailored to the PCs anyway, as if it's a non-controversial fact. I reminded you that this is against the playstyle that many people on this site abhor:).

The power level of the PCs still isn't a concern in that case either They can be mighty or mighty sad.  Either way the pursuit of "power" in char gen seems futile due to the nature of the game and gm choices.

Though I'd imagine in the most boxy of Sandboxes, there will be some degree of threat management and placement. Just explicit setting "level ups" as the characters progress. If you want your Noobie Adventurers to take on Lichicus Maximus on Day One, got for it. But he's not going to arbitrarily cross their paths while they're clearing rats in the city sewers on pure happenstance despite such an event being theoretically possible in a "real world". *

*Of course, some body probably does play that way.