Quote from: cranebump;954643Well, for dick measuring, I ALWAYS go with point buy.:-)

That was funny sir.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;954511I didn't think one could make a dick measuring contest out of options of rolling up characters for an RPG... I guess I was wrong.

It is a traditional divide in the hobby starting with rolling 3d6 in order versus rolling 3d6 six times arrange to taste. It exist along with using miniatures or not, doing funny voices or not, etc, etc.  The problem comes from the fact people ignore the fact it is an issue largely INDEPENDENT of what rule system one is using for the campaign.

If you like one over the other great! That your preference. If you are indifferent then you are indifferent. Also ignored the fact that people's preference change over time and not consistently. I may be satisfied with just rolling straight and making do with whatever the dice comes up with. Then for one campaign I have a specific idea I want to play and will arrange the scores accordingly. Then revert back to the next character to just taking whatever the dice gives me.

In short there is no right answer only what one likes at that moment in time along with the various consequences of the two mechanics.

Quote from: Trond;954464Yeah, because having an idea for a character really makes you a special snowflake. The amount of BS here is really mind boggling. Of course this is a point in favor of point buy systems. A point in favor of random rolls is that you really don't need to come up with anything beforehand.

Interesting that you triggered on my "special snowflake", but not his "cockblocked".  

The point is, there are assholes on both sides, both self-entitled shitheads who want to play their perfectly designed PC no matter whether or not it fits in the setting, let alone the campaign, and the control-freak GMs who force PC concepts on players.  Both are rarer then their internet presence would attest to (although simple numbers of GMs vs. players shows there to be much more of the former) and neither will be fixed by a system.

So claiming a rule or mechanic is good because it stops cheating, prevents fuckheads from being fuckheads, or forces the unwashed Gamist to think about Story..you know, the usual reasons...is utter horseshit.

Quote from: Tod13;954609Because it gives Fritz incentive to find alternatives: talk to the orcs, stampede the mammoths into the goblins, or hire henchmen and shout advice.

Except Fritz isn't bright enough to find these alternatives, nor charismatic enough, nor wise enough, nor strong enough, nor agile enough, nor tough enough.  All he is is a burden on everyone else trying to survive.  He can be a great guy, but he stays at home.

Quote from: estar;954649It is a traditional divide in the hobby starting with rolling 3d6 in order versus rolling 3d6 six times arrange to taste. It exist along with using miniatures or not, doing funny voices or not, etc, etc.  The problem comes from the fact people ignore the fact it is an issue largely INDEPENDENT of what rule system one is using for the campaign.

If you like one over the other great! That your preference. If you are indifferent then you are indifferent. Also ignored the fact that people's preference change over time and not consistently. I may be satisfied with just rolling straight and making do with whatever the dice comes up with. Then for one campaign I have a specific idea I want to play and will arrange the scores accordingly. Then revert back to the next character to just taking whatever the dice gives me.

In short there is no right answer only what one likes at that moment in time along with the various consequences of the two mechanics.

If it was just folks putting out their preferences... but there is so much justification... and much seems to be how the other guy is doing it wrong. It's just weird.

I do agree there is no right answer, which makes the OP's point silly.

Quote from: CRKrueger;954650Interesting that you triggered on my "special snowflake", but not his "cockblocked".  

The point is, there are assholes on both sides, both self-entitled shitheads who want to play their perfectly designed PC no matter whether or not it fits in the setting, let alone the campaign, and the control-freak GMs who force PC concepts on players.  Both are rarer then their internet presence would attest to (although simple numbers of GMs vs. players shows there to be much more of the former) and neither will be fixed by a system.

So claiming a rule or mechanic is good because it stops cheating, prevents fuckheads from being fuckheads, or forces the unwashed Gamist to think about Story..you know, the usual reasons...is utter horseshit.

No more rarer then the Sweet jesus Sandbox or Rammed in the ass Railroads.

Quote from: Sommerjon;954654Except Fritz isn't bright enough to find these alternatives, nor charismatic enough, nor wise enough, nor strong enough, nor agile enough, nor tough enough.  All he is is a burden on everyone else trying to survive.  He can be a great guy, but he stays at home.

On the one hand, it's hard to justify Fritz, that's why the Shopkeeper Rule exists.
On the other hand, from the PoV of the characters, it's not "Let's not take Fritz, let's wait for some other mysterious stranger to walk into town fresh from chargen.", it's "Do we go with Crazy Fritz, or without him?"  He's not crippled to the point of actually being not worth the extra body to wear armor, swing weapons, hold a door, carry loot, etc. so if it's Fritz or one less person, hell yes, take Fritz.

Quote from: CRKrueger;954650neither will be fixed by a system.

Exactly. What the issue boils down is that the players want to play a particular character that may or may not fit into the referee's campaign. It is reasonable to expect that the player and referee can sit down and figure it out. There no general rule other than those of common courtesy.

It OK for a OD&D campaign to say OK you start with a 18 charisma so you can play as a paladin. It also OK for a referee to say you have to roll 3d6 straight it how I run my campaigns. OD&D is not going to suddenly emit a fart and have a nuclear shit in either case.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;954655If it was just folks putting out their preferences... but there is so much justification... and much seems to be how the other guy is doing it wrong. It's just weird.

I do agree there is no right answer, which makes the OP's point silly.

The hobby is weird, it is what it is. My opinion it because there too much emphasis on the rules not the campaign. That it stems from the fact that when it comes to games the expectation is that you follow the rules hence if you don't following the rule you are cheating or committing any number of sins as a gamer.

However the point of playing RPGs is not to play a game but to experience a campaign. The game is a tool to make the campaign happen in a way that fun and interesting. But it not the POINT, the point is to run a interesting  campaign where players play characters interacting with a setting with their actions adjudicated by a referee.

But it is a game with rules people whine, hence we get this stuff like the debate over point-buy versus rolled attribute. Well the reality campaigns have failed using both methods, campaigns have succeeded in using both method, and both have had happened with everything in between.

There are consequences that may be interesting to discuss with both methods. For example when you roll to create characters then you will get a random range in how effective the character are. With point buy that range is under the control of player. But as people point out there are optimal methods of spending points that work better. But when people bring up those objections fail to note that is only true if you a good understanding of how the referee is going to conduct the campaign. A combat oriented campaign will require a different set of optimizations than one centered around court intrigue versus rambling across the stars trying to make a buck.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;954655If it was just folks putting out their preferences... but there is so much justification... and much seems to be how the other guy is doing it wrong. It's just weird.

Well, if we were physically present together, we could go fight on the playground, or literally butt heads like rams, to sort out the social pecking order. Likewise, doing something genuinely impressive is also hard to measure, so instead we obsess over sharing opinions over relatively unimportant aspects of the game. Dick measuring contest as you said before is frankly a pretty good analogy.

Quote from: estar;954661The hobby is weird, it is what it is. My opinion it because there too much emphasis on the rules not the campaign. That it stems from the fact that when it comes to games the expectation is that you follow the rules hence if you don't following the rule you are cheating or committing any number of sins as a gamer.

This is probably part of it, too. Nothing puts the irons into the fire for internet anger like the idea that somewhere out there someone is getting away with something (and worse yet, is feeling good about it).

Quote from: Ras Algethi;954655If it was just folks putting out their preferences... but there is so much justification... and much seems to be how the other guy is doing it wrong. It's just weird.

You must be new to RPG forums....or letter pages....

The first rule of RPG forums: every argument about RPGs always amounts to "badwrongfun," which is shorthand for "some people somewhere that I don't know are playing make-believe wrong and it makes me mad"

Quote from: Ras Algethi;954655If it was just folks putting out their preferences... but there is so much justification... and much seems to be how the other guy is doing it wrong. It's just weird.

I do agree there is no right answer, which makes the OP's point silly.

It's a matter of preference that is traditionally being turned into a dick-measuring contest, and this site values traditions.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;954655. . . [T]here is no right answer, which makes the OP's point silly.

The OP is only interested in (1) click-bait and (2) crowd-sourcing his latest 'designs.'

This tempest-in-a-pisspot is the first.

Well, misewell join in with schlongs a swingin'...

Point buy is abomination. It is the work of Satan, created by The Swinelord Beelzebub to propagate communist/marxist thought throughout the RPG hobby. Baby Jesus cries every time a character is created through point-buy. It corrupts the minds of our children, and weakens the resolve of our allies.

The only thing worse than point-buy is random roll. Random generation is a subvervise design meant to induct and addict gamers to gambling. It is unethical, suggesting that strength of character is based upon fate and luck rather than virtue and hard work. In this way it infects players with atheistic tendencies and moral relativism.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;954666Y

The first rule of RPG forums: every argument about RPGs always amounts to "badwrongfun," which is shorthand for "some people somewhere that I don't know are playing make-believe wrong and it makes me mad"

Can I use this in my sig?