Just noticed something odd in 5e while doing some notation after a player asked.

The Explorers Pack weighs 59lb and the Dungeoneers Pack weighs 56lb. Thus you need a minimum of 12 STR to lug either around unencumbered. And any weapons or such will very likely tip you over into encumbered.
The Diplomats pack weighs freaking 36lb because for god unknown reasons the character wants to strap a 25lb chest to their back... (but forgot to pack any food or drink...)
The Burglars Pack weighs 47lb.

Quote from: Omega;938915I usually just track supplies by week/tenday/equivalent. Do you have enough to make it one week? And at the end of a week check off those supplies. (assuming nothing else changed that in between.)

Whereas in Dragon Storm its day to day checks due to its wilderness base rather than dungeon. Though as mentioned earlier its possible to forage and get along.

One interesting thing in 5e was that it got me to paying more attention to the logistics of feeding your pack animals and the logistics of transporting the feed. About 150lb just to cover 10 days for the horse pulling the caravan home. Another 70lb per party member. 360lb of supplies alone. But we are good to go for a full 10 days on our own if need be.

That's if you carry your water though (I don't know about horses, but food rations for people is 2 lbs/day). If you carry your water with you, then supplies are indeed heavy.

Quote from: Omega;939593Just noticed something odd in 5e while doing some notation after a player asked.

The Explorers Pack weighs 59lb and the Dungeoneers Pack weighs 56lb. Thus you need a minimum of 12 STR to lug either around unencumbered. And any weapons or such will very likely tip you over into encumbered.
The Diplomats pack weighs freaking 36lb because for god unknown reasons the character wants to strap a 25lb chest to their back... (but forgot to pack any food or drink...)
The Burglars Pack weighs 47lb.

I think it's a feature, not a bug (minus the chest for a diplomat, that seems silly). Light/medium/heavy encumbrance is optional. If you want to go realistic, then you're very likely to be slowed (or just have your armor/weapons/etc. while your hirelings cart around your food and tent and such). If you want to be a party of 4-8 who can go off into the wilderness without a support crew and go exploring dungeons with just the stuff you can carry on your back, then use the base 15xstr system.

Hirelings, while in 5e, are still somewhat downplayed. So assume that the PCs are either lugging all this themselves, or have some pack animals.

In 5e if using the encumberance rules then STR x5 is the limit before you become encumbered and slow down by 10. And x10 slows you down 10 more and have disadvantage on some stat checks. So if you are in a mixed group then its probably ok to load up more.

To clarify. Strx5/x10/x15 is the more realistic option. If you choose to use the cinematic/whatever you want to call it rules, the cap is Strx15, but you are still using encumbrance rules.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;939647To clarify. Strx5/x10/x15 is the more realistic option. If you choose to use the cinematic/whatever you want to call it rules, the cap is Strx15, but you are still using encumbrance rules.

um... incorrect?

Base is STR x15. No encumbrance. You just have a carrying limit.
Encumbrance version is the 5/10/15.

So its either on, or off.
Push/Drag/Lift rules kick in once you pass the x15 in either. Dropping you to 5 movement. The max max cap is x30.

I think so far only the Goliath race from Volo's guide can exceed that since they have the trait that they count as Large for their carrying capacity, which doubles their cap.

Quote from: Omega;939712um... incorrect?

Base is STR x15. No encumbrance. You just have a carrying limit.
Encumbrance version is the 5/10/15.

So its either on, or off.
Push/Drag/Lift rules kick in once you pass the x15 in either. Dropping you to 5 movement. The max max cap is x30.

So you can carry up to 15xstr, and then Push/Drag/Lift rules kick in. How is that not an encumbrance system?

Edit: It doesn't matter, it's semantics. My main point, however, was that you do have a weight limit even if you don't use the  5/10/15 rules, whatever you call it.

Depends on the game. Like in 50 Fathoms the PCs have a ship (making encumbrance generally meaningless except when leaving the ship or for personal gear carried), but food is very important with so many crew, so Survival is very important. In my supers game, Necessary Evil, I don't worry about survival too much. The PCs are assumed to be eating rats and dirty water in sewers if not paying for food, but hey as supers it doesn't hurt them. Encumbrance tends to be more important, at least for low-strength supers. That way they aren't just monty-hauling back all sorts of high-tech enemy equipment after every battle. In my fantasy Shaintar game, they were in the Grey Rangers and were supplied enough food to get to their mission site (aka GM food), with their return food needed to get themselves (as Rangers they were expected to be able to gather their own food and water on the way there and back to make up for the rest of the journey and cut down on food and water costs for the Grayson's Grey Rangers).  Encumbrance was also important in that game.

If you don't feel like tracking such things, just make it come up when narratively important. Carry what you want, but then a pack of zombies chase you and you seem to be encumbered and a bit slower than the rest of the group...dropping that pack? Ok your pack had your food and water and now you need to gather more supplies or die of thirst and starvation. So just bring it up when its important versus actively tracking it.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;939720So you can carry up to 15xstr, and then Push/Drag/Lift rules kick in. How is that not an encumbrance system?

Edit: It doesn't matter, it's semantics. My main point, however, was that you do have a weight limit even if you don't use the  5/10/15 rules, whatever you call it.

Because thats not encumbrance? Thats moving into a different category. Trying to move a weight instead of carrying a weight. Past the x15 you can barely move an object by pushing or dragging. And cant even move when lifting.

I think we just have different conceptions of the requirements of something being an encumbrance system, and it's really not a big deal.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;939890I think we just have different conceptions of the requirements of something being an encumbrance system, and it's really not a big deal.

Sorry. No. Push/Pull/Lift isnt even mentioned in encumbrance. Which, you know, covers carrying stuff over a distance.

Oh wait. You dont know.

Woohoo Rainman Party!  Let me join in.

An encumbrance system is a means of determining when you become encumbered.

Encumber: restrict or burden (someone or something) in such a way that free action or movement is difficult.

So, if you simply defined via strength what you could Push/Pull/Lift, that would not be an encumbrance system.
If, however, you defined how fast or far you can move when Pushing/Pulling/Lifting those weights, then that would be an encumbrance system, at the very least under the case of Lift.

Speaking as a trainer, in encumbrance discussions it is always obvious that the participants do not push, pull or lift anything heavier than a box of doughnuts.

It brings to mind the great Overland Hiking monster thread on the GURPS forums. Ah, those were the days...

Quote from: Omega;940029Sorry. No. Push/Pull/Lift isnt even mentioned in encumbrance. Which, you know, covers carrying stuff over a distance.

Oh wait. You dont know.

Seriously? I don't know because I disagree with you on terminology? That's... an interesting interpretation.

To clarify my position. If the only rule for carrying was "characters have a maximum load of 150 lbs.," and no other text, I would still say that is an encumbrance system. Maybe a more technical definition would be a carrying capacity system, but that sounds like proof by hairsplitting.

Again, my main goal was to clarify that there is a weight limit in 5e, even if not using the str x 5/10/15 rules, regardless of what they are called. The rest I do not care about, and am mildly amused you've decided to turn into an argument. I see no need to continue this tangent and derail this thread. Feel free to continue on your own if you like.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;940067Speaking as a trainer, in encumbrance discussions it is always obvious that the participants do not push, pull or lift anything heavier than a box of doughnuts.

Not a trainer, but I also find encumbrance discussions to be lots of fun, though possibly for different reasons;).

What's the weight limit, x15? Does that mean you just literally collapse under all the weight?