Quote from: rgrove0172;936754

Quote from: Tristram Evans;936704What would you say is your greatest weakness? (and I mean you, not what you think a group of posters on here would say)

. . . My weakness would be managing all of the various sub plots, NPC activity and player actions without scripting. When things get overwhelming and confusing the simplest solution is often to minimize options and narrow the plot.(yep, that's when I have been guilty of railroading, no denying it.)

Quote from: rgrove0172;936754

Quote from: Tristram Evans;936704What is missing from your games or your experience GMing that you'd like?

Believe it or not what I find missing is a clean, logical and dramatic plotline most of the time. For the very reasons many on this board rave about randomness, storylines often suffer anti-climaxes, fruitless sidetracks, deadends and other unfortunate occurances which to my mind detract from the flow of the game. Granted, sometimes they can be entertaining in themselves but when looking back afterward usually seem as 'badly written scenes' in a movie, ones the editors usually pull before release. I allow them to occur, most of the time but prefer it when the drama comes off properly paced, the story follows a logical path. I could give examples but Im sure you know what I mean.

Quote from: rgrove0172;936754

Quote from: Tristram Evans;936704A. The feeling of having for a short time existed in an alternate reality.

Sounds silly as you don't really FEEL anything but the illusion can be awesome.

Reading back through some posts I merely skimmed earlier, I think these three responses to TeeEee's 'questionaire' are the most informing, or revealing, or damning, depending on your perspective. Plaintive bleats of, 'But that's how I do that, too!' don't jibe with Grover's emphasis on plot and story line and rejection of immersion in the game-world.

From this I thread I draw two conclusions:

• There are quite a few gamers out there, and more than a few designers as well, who try to use the 'cool kids' lingo' to describe their games without really understanding what the fuck they're talking about. I speak from experience here: I fucked this up for years when I used 'System Matters' wrong.
• With the noteworthy exception of Los Diablos Hotshots, Texas firefighters are fucking pussies.

Seriously, Los Diablos are badass fire-eaters.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936877A useful guideline I've found for unexpected situations is to follow a simple rule I heard regarding theater:

"Every character wants SOMETHING, and in every scene they are going to do what they can to manipulate events to get them what they want."

The butler may just want to get the master and his friends drunk quickly so they go home and he can get the hell to bed.  Not every character has to be trying to rule the universe.

What's interesting about this is that THAT is the heart of a good story -- what do the characters want? Do they get it? That's why we bother following the story in the books, AND why we end up rolling the dice at the table.

Sorry, I tried to read the last 20 posts but could not. I have read this stuff before.

As a DM/GM, I toss out general descriptions. If a player latches onto one, then I ad lib and develop it. If a player doesn't "catch on" to a description important to "my plot" as a DM and lets it flow by, I let it go by too. It later might play a role in the "narrative," which is created by my players. If not, as a DM either I drop it or bring it up in a later adventure.

This technique seems difficult for OP to understand. Again, sorry for not reading the last 20 posts intensively, but they seem at a stand-still.

I want to say this: GMs/DMs are also players in the game. They prepare 10-20 times more than "players" do, so I'm guessing that their investment in the game is greater. DMs want to give their players a good time; they want their players to catch the hints they're throwing out. If players don't catch the hints, then the DM might try a second time.

As a DM, I won't tell my players the color of my duke's soldiers' boots unless my players want to know. If they do, I expect them to do something about it (make a play). I don't give a shit about my players' "immersive" experience--as a DM, I present a scenario; if the player wants to engage or not, that is his problem.

OP wants DM to do everything, including wipe his butt.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936877A useful guideline I've found for unexpected situations is to follow a simple rule I heard regarding theater:

"Every character wants SOMETHING, and in every scene they are going to do what they can to manipulate events to get them what they want."

The butler may just want to get the master and his friends drunk quickly so they go home and he can get the hell to bed.  Not every character has to be trying to rule the universe.

Quote from: cranebump;936888What's interesting about this is that THAT is the heart of a good story -- what do the characters want? Do they get it? That's why we bother following the story in the books, AND why we end up rolling the dice at the table.

And THAT is why I've found that telling people to roleplay characters with goals and to stay IC is about 123 times more efficient if you want a good story to emerge than using most narrative mechanics;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;936832I'm not the one to talk to about GMing a narrative game.

So Conan 2D20 hasn't arrived yet?

Quote from: AsenRG;936854It was when I reached the same conclusion, with the help of Black Vulmea's blog, that I made it mandatory that characters should have goals written explicitly on the character sheet:D!

That is excellent advice.

Quote from: AsenRG;936907And THAT is why I've found that telling people to roleplay characters with goals and to stay IC is about 123 times more efficient if you want a good story to emerge than using most narrative mechanics;).

Are you sure it isn't 83 times more efficient? That extra 40 times is hard to quantify!

But yes, if your players spend game time roleplaying characters who strive to achieve their goals, the end result is something really fun to talk about afterwards.

And that talk after the game is called the story.

Quote from: Spinachcat;936933That is excellent advice.

Thank you:)! That was, I admit, a flash of inspiration.
I was introducing newbies to RPGs and during the pre-campaign speech I noticed that the players seemed to pay more attention when I was explaining about the character sheet, and less attention when I was explaining about "the characters need to have goals".
"So here you write your character's goals, and I'm going to award XP based on your efforts to achieve them", I added. That got their attention, if it's written down, it's obviously important:p!
It worked;).

QuoteAre you sure it isn't 83 times more efficient? That extra 40 times is hard to quantify!

It's an interesting question. We should ask for funding to research it, if there's some kind of grants;)!

QuoteBut yes, if your players spend game time roleplaying characters who strive to achieve their goals, the end result is something really fun to talk about afterwards.

And that talk after the game is called the story.

We're obviously in agreement on that account:D!

Quote from: Spinachcat;936933So Conan 2D20 hasn't arrived yet?

Yeah you got me.
Hasn't arrived yet.  
Even if I run it occasionally, pretty sure I won't be the Voice of Wisdom for narrative GMing. (I know, why would that be any different? )

Quote from: Spinachcat;936933But yes, if your players spend game time roleplaying characters who strive to achieve their goals, the end result is something really fun to talk about afterwards.

And that talk after the game is called the story.

You've been getting more vocal lately, sounding a bit annoyed with our Story Brethren. You running into some proselytizers down in LA, or is it just companies snapping up every classic IP worth anything to publish using a narrative Jay Little system?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936877A useful guideline I've found for unexpected situations is to follow a simple rule I heard regarding theater:

"Every character wants SOMETHING, and in every scene they are going to do what they can to manipulate events to get them what they want."

The butler may just want to get the master and his friends drunk quickly so they go home and he can get the hell to bed.  Not every character has to be trying to rule the universe.

You know, this is absolutely fucking golden. Characters have motivations. It is also so Goddamn obvious that a tabletop gamer has to be a fucking idiot not to grasp that concept intuitively.

Quote from: CRKrueger;936779Grove here's something to mull on a bit (or not)...

See, RIGHT HERE is why Tenbones is calling your style Basic and suggesting there is more for you to learn.  It might seem condescending, but bear with me.

For many of us, we found ourselves in similar situations, and we handled them pretty much the way you say might be a weakness - control the chaos by restricting options.  Grab the reins and start steering.  Get things under control again.  The "advanced" method Tenbones is advocating is to not control the chaos by turning it to order, not ride the chaos like a horse and grab the reins, but more surf the chaos, stay on top and see where it goes.  When you do that and succeed, you'll find out that even though you were still GM the whole time, the players had more freedom than ever before, and the plot might have ended up nowhere close to what you originally had planned, but Goddamn, what a run.  

Once you get really good at that, and do it enough times, then you'll notice something.  Your players, consciously or not know that you control the chaos, they know you railroad at times, grab the reins, whatever, and they play accordingly.  Once they Ride the Lightning a few times because you have Let Go, then they will adjust their play subtly and then more confidently.  As you keep GMing and Playing together it becomes a new cycle of reinforcing behaviors.  Once this happens enough, you'll find you're no longer prepping Plots, you're prepping Situations.  Your characters are no longer in a Story, they are in a World of a hundred simultaneous events that result organically from the setting and its NPCs which have a life of their own, which the PCs are free to become entangled in...or not.

Complete and utter horseshit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;936779We do know what you mean, but your evaluation of the results of past is constrained by context - you're still evaluating it based on the rules of Story and Drama as if you were directing a performance.  You are not.

Once you move Beyond Story, you'll find you really are taking it to another level. It is much harder to deliver a good game this way, but you have an advantage in that you are a Mad Prepper, so there are probably thousands of details floating around in your head about the setting that don't immediately apply to any given structured plot you have.  But when you're running the World in Motion, any of them could potentially come into play.  Your shit has to be quicker, your setting has to be tighter, your planning and logic of how NPCs and the world who aren't present are going to be affected by PC action has to be quicker, sometimes in Real.Time.  It's an absolute cast-iron bitch to do.  But when it fires on all cylinders...Holy Christ it's awesome.

Will there be anti-climaxes along the way, easy victories and surprising defeats?  Yes, that's what Chaos gets you, Chaos.  But the game will be alive in the way a controlled Plot can never be.

So anyway, that might explain the "Basic" idea in hopefully a way that makes sense.

Yeah cuz careening from RNG to RNG is rpg nirvana?  wtf ever.

Quote from: rgrove0172;936821It was, and void of the spit and vinegar that sometimes ruins an honest attempt to give advice. I really appreciate the time and thought within.

Only because you are on your back showing them your belly.  You took a stand for a brief moment then capitulated for some reason.

Quote from: Sommerjon;936963Yeah cuz careening from RNG to RNG is rpg nirvana?  wtf ever.

I'm not familiar with the term: RNG. What does it stand for?

Quote from: Nexus;936964I'm not familiar with the term: RNG. What does it stand for?

Random Number Generator?

Random Number Goddess?

Quote from: Nexus;936964I'm not familiar with the term: RNG. What does it stand for?

It means "random new guy," but honestly, it's sommerjon, so who the fuck cares?

Quote from: Nexus;936964I'm not familiar with the term: RNG. What does it stand for?

Random Number Generator.  It's possible he means not having a structured plot and enforcing it means your game will be procedurally generated via random tables or some other inane point (random new guy??) it's not worth the time to invest in engaging with.

Who knows, it's Sommerjon.  There is no point.  It's a useless driveby comment to throw a "fuck you" to someone and move on, like damn near every one of his posts, a quick contentless threadcrap for the lolz.  At least I hope it's for the lolz, no one should actually have that much bile, especially at Christmas.

Oh, ok. In hindsight, the meaning should have been pretty clear.

Since it's 100% incorrect, and purposely so (if that's even what he meant), not sure the meaning is that obvious.