Quote from: CRKrueger;934911That was me I think, I swapped the initials, fixed now.  I'll thwap myself with the bucket.

Quote from: Krimson;934914The confusion is understandable. MWP had three books to release and couldn't get the third one out before the line was cancelled. Though I think it was a good game, the support wasn't there so it's no surprise most people don't know about it.

No, guys, it wasn't CRK, it was me:). I assumed BV was talking about MSH, didn't bother to check what the initials MHR stand for, and repeated basically exactly what he had just said in his post.

Then I explained I tend to mistake the initials of those games, and he just made sure to hammer the point home by posting what they stand for, possibly to avoid further misunderstandings;).

It's all very personal and subjective, isn't it?

I love the superhero genre and I find it is the perfect genre for gaming with it clear primary hook, built-in, infinite character differentiation and kitchen sink nature (if desired). It like the heroic concept, the character who makes a stand, who fights for what he believes in and for those who can't protect themselves without requiring a reward at the end. I personally tend to stick to Silver Age sensibilities in which there is a lot of fighting but very little death on either side; you can of course play the Punisher or other grittier types of heroes , but I like me escapism to be escapist.

Sure, the genre is kind of silly if you think about it. Same could be said about anything that contains wizards, vampires or space aliens. The fact of the matter is we willingly suspend disbelief for the things we like; things come across as jarring when we were never that interested in the first place.

As for the current games, the standard bearer for superhero games for the past 15 years or so has been Mutant and Masterminds. It's a bit to complex for me (though not Champion level complex) but it has been very successful so it's probably a good starting point.

I got a lot of mileage out of ICONS. It is on the rules-light side of things, but not to the point that everything it abstracted to oblivion. Some of its features I find are very good at drawing players in and keeping them engaged, including the controversial "players only roll" approach from in the first edition. Supers! is meant to be in same level of complexity and gets very good reviews but I've never played it.

For more gritty, or at least more grounded, superhero  game you can look at Mutant City Blues or Wild Talents.

And that is only scratching the surface.

I'd guess it's the breadth of the genre and the powers involved: trying to craft a system that covers all that ground tends to make the systems complicated/fiddly (and usually still not a perfect fit for some of the genre powers/emulation) or simpler and narrower in scope (but leaving gaping holes, as far as genre powers/emulation go).

FWIW, I've played Champions, MSH (FASERIP), Superworld, Villains & Vigilantes, and Mutants & Masterminds. Of those, I had the most fun with V&V. Not perfect, by any means, but still had a great time with it.

I liked V&V back in the day.  Champions appeals to me more these days but the new edition of V&V might change that.  I don't know, I guess it'll have a points system.  That's a down side in my mind.  Nothing says golden or silver age than random, unrelated powers.

Actually, I just thought of a genre management tool!  Maybe someone could suggest it to Jeff Dee.  Pick two colors, these are the colors of your tights and your briefs.  Yes you're wearing tights and briefs, this is a super hero game.  Strong-men wore briefs over their tights for good reasons.

I think that a good superhero campaign ought to focus on the humanity of the characters. That's what's relatable, not the crazy powers. The outsider who just wants to fit in. The fellow with the dark past he just can't shake it. The gal with rage issues. The legacy hero, who doesn't feel up to the job. Great power, great responsibility, and how the characters deal with it IS the story, in many cases.

So, I think crunch isn't something that works well, in this instance. Rather., focus on the choices and why they're made. For example, the Astro City story where jack in the box is confronted by future incarnations of his not yet born son, both twisted and angry. He thinks this happens because his super career made him a shitty dad. So, he drops the  guise, trains a replacement, and hopes and prays he can avoid destiny. But he'll not know for sure, if this is what works. He can only take action and hope it's the right thing. Or  the part in Kingdom Come, where Superman is reminded that, when he put the Super above the Man, he lost his way (man, was that a great moment).

The other option, of course, is wish fulfillment--hold back the darkness another day, though the darkness is pervasive, and unyielding. Yet I shall stand in its way. I shall stem the tide, thought it may harm me, irrevocably.  To do, in my imagination, what I wish I could do and be in reality--Cap's shield. The hammer of a god. The will of spidey. The decentness of supes. The flawed, tragic nature of Bats, that drives him, and, as we know it will, inevitably break him, someday.

That's what supers are about. Is it any wonder I feel like I can't capture it at the table? But, if I could, that's what I'd do.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;934805So, help me out here. Are there any Supers RPGs that don't suck?

ICONS. It's the only one that doesn't suck.

Been enjoying lurking in this thread. The things that tend to turn me off of supers games are:

1. Very complicated (IMO) build rules, way too many powers (IMO) to retain in memory, and/or rules that boil down to "buy this book" if you want to have certain powers (the latter includes the former so I put them together)

2. (Overly (IMO)) complicated battle rules. Knock back, fatigue, two (or three) kinds of hit points. Noooo!

I know that 1 is often a result of allowing people to build both Batman, Ironman, Doctor Strange and Superman.
I think 2 is an attempt to make battles that make invulnerable characters interesting.

But at the same time, I'm not sure, short of a computer program (that crunches tons of numbers behind the scenes), how to make supers work otherwise.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;934805Yeah, I know people will react to this by suggesting Their Favourite Game (TM) doesn't suck, and probably give detailed reasons why not, but from a personal perspective I've never really been satisfied with any of them.
[snip]
There are possibly cultural reasons for this
[snip]
The biggest games
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So, help me out here. Are there any Supers RPGs that don't suck?

Yes, I can tell you exactly which superhero game doesn't suck, if you can tell me, why you like superheroes and what superhero comic books you really enjoy?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934959Yes, I can tell you exactly which superhero game doesn't suck, if you can tell me, why you like superheroes and what superhero comic books you really enjoy?

Well, when I was growing up the comics I used to read were things like The Beano and 2000AD, and latterly Viz, however, I do have some Alan Moore titles and The Invisibles on my shelf and I'm pretty certain I must have read some Spiderman and Batman in my time.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;934885With infinite time, a monkey could eventually type out the works of Shakespeare.

Your posts? Same monkey, about 13 seconds.

"Three monkeys, ten seconds, tops," to quote Dogbert.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;934962Well, when I was growing up the comics I used to read were things like The Beano and 2000AD, and latterly Viz, however, I do have some Alan Moore titles and The Invisibles on my shelf and I'm pretty certain I must have read some Spiderman and Batman in my time.

Ok, then. The superhero game you would most likely enjoy is...

Unknown Armies.

I've had a lot of fun playing CHAMPIONS but it's a difficult genre, I'll admit.

The very nature of the genre makes gaming hard, between the "Paste Pot Pete Vs. Galactus" aspect and the fact that they recycle their stories on a three year basis (according to Jim Shooter at Chicago Comic Con in 81 or 82.)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;934966Ok, then. The superhero game you would most likely enjoy is...

Unknown Armies.

Well, I have Unknown Armies and Mage: The Ascension, but are they really superhero RPGs?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;934972Well, I have Unknown Armies and Mage: The Ascension, but are they really superhero RPGs?

Yes, absolutely.

They aren't  "four-colour silver age American superheroes", but I thinks thats what you dont want.  Your observation that superhero systems try to be universal, is because superhero comics comprise every genre. Judge Dredd is obviously not the same genre as Doctor Strange who is not the same genre as Will Eisner's The Spirit who is not the same genre as Guardians of the Galaxy which is not the same genre as Swamp Thing,etc, etc. But its all superheroes.

The best way to get ideas for a superhero game is to go through Superman comics from the early 60s when Mort Wiesenger used to ask his preschool age kids "what should Superman do this month?" Hence "Giant Turtle Jimmy Olson," "Superman with an Ant Head," etc.