How about "folklore is true," and "cold iron" is not some kind of bullshit like it says in the rules, but rather, a poetic kenning; "cold iron" is just iron.  Therefore, having cold iron be the bane of metal would be a hell of a restriction.

Also look ar 5es rules on hiring people to cast spells. A 1st level spell is 10 gold. So a cantrip might be 1 gold. Not to mention you actually kinda you know... need someone around who has actually committed the cantrip to memory. The travelling merchant wont have so they'll have to find and hire someone.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;920866Y'know, I think nerfing spells like teleport, divination, fly and such is the shit-ass referee's way of covering for their own lack of imagination and tactical skill.

As the saying goes, "It depends."  FLY used to affect one person for 1-6 turns plus level; TELEPORT affected one person; et cetera.  Personally, I think "mass teleport with no chance of error" is bullshit.

Quote from: Omega;920995Not to mention you actually kinda you know... need someone around who has actually committed the cantrip to memory. The travelling merchant wont have so they'll have to find and hire someone.

There are dozens of historical professions in pre-industrial society that have similar rarity. That the only way to hire their services was to know somebody who knew the guy. Something that a guy with broken net doesn't have time for so he is better off learning how to fix it himself.

Quote from: Omega;920995Also look ar 5es rules on hiring people to cast spells. A 1st level spell is 10 gold. So a cantrip might be 1 gold. Not to mention you actually kinda you know... need someone around who has actually committed the cantrip to memory. The travelling merchant wont have so they'll have to find and hire someone.

Skilled labor earns 2 gp a day. Unskilled labor 1 sp a day. Cantrips costing 1 gp will be viewed a last resort measure by somebody wanting to get a net fixed.

Quote from: Spinachcat;920978Perhaps casting spells takes days / weeks / months off your life? It's one thing to blow a year or more of your life to further some great cause (even if that cause is your own power), but its another thing just to cast Mend to fix peasant shit while blowing off time of your own life.

That is basically the Dungeon Crawl Classic answer to the question. Actually it really bad for wizard characters.

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Then the problem is compounded by the fact that the result of the spell is random. I had a wizard killed because he wanted to loosen a door and used enlarge to pop it out of the frame. He rolled well for the actual result. Too well as the door expanded to a 1000% it normal size and shot out of there like a bullet. The caster was standing in front of the door about 20 feet away*, failed his save, and was killed. And it was was the entrance to the dungeon to boot.

The whole thing was a first for me in 35 years of roleplaying where get killed by the door while entering the dungeon.

So in the DCC RPG, a spell working way better than expected can cause it own issues.

*I was using miniatures and the player placed his character in a direct line in front of the door. So there was no really any debate on this issue.

While Eastar and Openjar's discussion is quite interesting I still think what this thread needs now is Shipyard to pick a set of counter measures, play test, and report back.

As for the civilization debate.  My plausible history track for magic being powerful, possible, and easy as it is RAW and still be living in the dark ages would be:

We had a glorious civilization but the mages ruined it all so now if anyone mends our nets we burn them.

Quote from: Headless;921043While Eastar and Openjar's discussion is quite interesting I still think what this thread needs now is Shipyard to pick a set of counter measures, play test, and report back.

That really what it boils down. We can give all the suggestion we want but campaign are diverse enough that in the end it has to be put to the test with the actual players.

Quote from: Headless;921043We had a glorious civilization but the mages ruined it all so now if anyone mends our nets we burn them.

That works.

Quote from: estar;921046That really what it boils down. We can give all the suggestion we want but campaign are diverse enough that in the end it has to be put to the test with the actual players.

I'm mulling it all over. I'll probably post my complete table rules here eventually.

Quote from: estar;921042That is basically the Dungeon Crawl Classic answer to the question. Actually it really bad for wizard characters.

But it's hilarious fun in play. Sadly my wizard PC has yet to botch a spell badly enough to suffer any significant backlash. Magic in the game takes on an element of gambling... you're much less likely to use it for casual purposes. You'll let the Thief have a go at unlocking the door before you risk losing a spell (or worse) on it.
Sure, it's not to the taste of Players who want pew pew type wizards... but for the rest of us it does make the magic a lot more spooky, dangerous, and magical.

QuoteThen the problem is compounded by the fact that the result of the spell is random.

Some of the spells do let you downgrade the result if it's too powerful for your intentions.

QuoteI had a wizard killed because he wanted to loosen a door and used enlarge to pop it out of the frame. He rolled well for the actual result. Too well as the door expanded to a 1000% it normal size and shot out of there like a bullet.

What spell was that? I read over DCC's version of the Knock spell and I don't see any results that expand the door.

Quote from: Simlasa;921527What spell was that? I read over DCC's version of the Knock spell and I don't see any results that expand the door.

The wizard didn't have knock he used the Enlarge spell

Quote from: estar;921543The wizard didn't have knock he used the Enlarge spell

That's really funny. Did everyone laugh when he got squished?
I guess that comes down to the GM's interpretation of what would happen... but I'd be fine with it. It seems plausible.

Quote from: Simlasa;921556That's really funny. Did everyone laugh when he got squished?
I guess that comes down to the GM's interpretation of what would happen... but I'd be fine with it. It seems plausible.

One of my Magic users used Reduce on a door once to the same effect since we did not have a Thief on hand. I tried picking it myself first as I had a good DEX on the character. But failed. So we resorted to Reduce as I'd memorized it and we did not want to draw attention trying to bash the door down.

Come to think of it... being the most often highest DEX character in a party. I did end up filling in for the Thief in a non-magical manner more than a few times in any given group that lacked a Thief. Mostly picking locks some tricky climbing. One of the Fighters liked to be back-up thief with a sort of utility belt of things like acids to melt locks off chests and some gloves to help with climbing as he used STR instead.

Quote from: Simlasa;921556That's really funny. Did everyone laugh when he got squished?

Oh yes. The general consensus was we all seen people killed in the first room of the dungeon.  We never seen anybody killed by the actual first door you opened to get inside the dungeon.

Quote from: Simlasa;921556I guess that comes down to the GM's interpretation of what would happen... but I'd be fine with it. It seems plausible.

My specific ruling was, based on the fact that he placed his miniature twenty feet in front of the door, I rolled a d6, if I roll a 3 or 4, the door comes barrelling your way you need to make a saving throw. I rolled a 4, he didn't make his save. I rolled damage, he died. The everybody busted a gut laughing at the situation.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;920866Y'know, I think nerfing spells like teleport, divination, fly and such is the shit-ass referee's way of covering for their own lack of imagination and tactical skill.

But this shit is flavorful as fuck and adds another dimension to magic - very well done, sir or madam.

Yep!