Quote from: Doom;920091The problem with special counterspells is you're just going to "it takes a wizard to beat a wizard." If you want to end caster supremacy, the solution is not going to be "give casters more powers/options." It's that simple.

Yup.

Further, Dimensional Jam is a crappy form of counterspell, situational, that we CCG players term Silver Bullets. In fact, since it is so situational, not affecting a whole school even, just a subset within (and the body of spells available is large,) AND it only works within 60' from the starting point (so it does zero vs. buff, teleport, nova = win!), this spell immediately gets classified even worse. It is a Cornercase Hoser.

This design path leads to frustration and madness, Shipyard. Stop it now. Choose another.

Quote from: Doom;920091The problem with special counterspells is you're just going to "it takes a wizard to beat a wizard." If you want to end caster supremacy, the solution is not going to be "give casters more powers/options." It's that simple.

Trouble is, there's only so much a really well-trained warrior can realistically do to impede a flying teleporter who can magically suggest he grapple his friends to stop them from swinging those sharp objects around because, "They're going to hurt themselves!"

That said, we can at least try...

SIDEBAR - SOLUTIONS FOR THE MUNDANES

Proposal 1: Turn to page 168 of the 5e Player's handbook, look at the Mage Slayer feat, take the first and third of its abilities and make them standard rules for everyone in the campaign.
PROS: Relatively simple, actually a return to older rules from a less magically supreme era, affects every single melee NPC and monster throughout the game, increases strategic thinking as a party
CONS: Doesn't actually shut down the spells being cast so Bastardio the Magnificent is still going to vanish in a puff of smoke, doesn't help ranged attackers, casters will feel singled out and whine (but they'd do that with almost any fix, so...)

Proposal 2: Pepper your adventures with magic items that are clearly designed for non-full casters and grant abilities that allow them to stand up to full-casters. Arrows of teleport jamming, full plate of fly 1/day, horned helm of mind-control resistance, etc. Make sure the manufacturing of these items in the setting is in the hands of non-caster NPCs, like dedicated smiths who can't really fight or cast or do anything other than make items. Make sure NPC combatants make use of these items.
PROS: Getting versatility-adding magic items always feels good to players, levels the playing field for adventure design
CONS: Still fundamentally fighting magic with magic, feels like a very obvious patch to a system deficiency, magic item clutter and items not feeling 'special'

Proposal 3: Add non-magical class features or entire archetypes to non-full caster classes that help shut down magic. For example, give the battlemaster fighter a maneuver that blocks casting for 1 round on a failed save. Give the monk an ability to shrug off deleterious spell effects, give rogues an ability to spot people under the effect of charms and illusions, etc. Make sure NPCs get these abilities too.
PROS: Modern players always seen new intrinsic 'kool powerz' as a good thing, players who don't worry about caster supremacy don't feel sucked into the agenda
CONS: It's hard and time consuming man, not much design space that feels 'realistic'.

Proposal 4: Grant either the grapple rules or the grapple feat the explicit ability to shut down verbal, somatic, and material component use (cover mouth or grab throat, disrupt hand gestures, knock away components, etc). You could even let it block line of sight for spell targeting (cover their eyes).
PROS: Relatively simple, very appropriate to fantasy fiction, works for all creatures including the crucial city guards trying to make an arrest
CONS: It's basically a hardcore save-or-suck effect for casters who commit the grave sin of rolling poorly for initiative, every battle involving casters will turn into a hilarious wrestling free for all, the grappling rules are often a pain even in this edition, the grappling rules are not similarly punitive for melee or ranged attacks

What do you guys think?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;918986Thing that has been seriously bugging me lately: The average D&D setting (not the player characters, the setting itself) seems strangely lacking in the resources necessary to remain functional in the face of what casters can actually do. While 5e (my current edition) does include tricks like Detect Magic, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Nondetection, Truesight, and Counterspell, many of these are of higher level or short duration, requiring a setting with an abundance of mid-level NPC casters constantly employed in the mundane tasks of making sure yet another baron isn't scryed, teleported to and dominated. Meanwhile, who's looking out for the merchant emporiums ripe for plundering by any two-bit shmendrik with a Charm Person spell and a little patience?

I do recall that over the course of D&D's history a large crop of spellcaster counter-measures have been devised and presented in various core and splat books. Can anyone recommend some particular tricks of this sort worth digging up and adapting to 5e?

In the meantime I'm trying to think up (unconsciously recall?) some tech of my own, and I wouldn't mind critique. Here's something I've felt a real need for:

MAGIC ALERT
1st-level abjuration (ritual)
Available to Ranger and Wizard
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a tiny whistle and a braid of copper)
Duration: 8 hours
  You set an alarm against unwelcome spellcasting. Choose a door, a window, or an area within range that is no larger than a 20-foot cube. Until the spell ends, an alarm alerts you whenever a spell or any portion of a spell's effect is cast in or into the warded area. The alarm only responds to spells and spell effects, not creatures or objects that are simply magical by nature. When you cast the spell, you can designate schools of magic or particular spells that won't set off the alarm. You also choose whether the alarm is mental or audible.
  A mental alarm alerts you with a ping in your mind if you are within 1 mile of the warded area. This ping awakens you if you are sleeping.
  An audible alarm produces the sound of a whistle for 10 seconds within 60 feet.

The goal with this spell here is to offer a cheap way for mundane NPCs like merchants or goblin tunnel scum to know something is up without completely blocking the PC caster's fun. Thoughts?

TL;DR the entire thread. I have two suggestions.

1) Spell Resistance - I have seen this special ability fuck up more casters than anything else in a D&D game.

2) For Magic-Users, Make spells hard to find - If the only way to gain new spells is by spell research or by killing another magic-user and taking their spellbook, or by ransacking ruins then the characters will not have the laundry list of spells for every occasion that seems so prevalent in later editions of D&D.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;920093Yep. It would probably turn into wizards duking it to to decide the fate of the muggles. (Which isn't a terrible idea for a campaign.)

Already done, it's called Ars Magica.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;920134Already done, it's called Ars Magica.

Haven't played it. Interesting.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919768Unfortunately your solution appears to be mutilating the game, which I'm not quite willing to do yet for the reasons I've listed previously (current game is 5e, unadulterated 5e is the game new players want, 5e is a comfort zone for busy adult players,etc)

Next section:

PART 2 - TELEPORTATION

These spells don't just make a mockery of the setting*, they kill exciting adventures dead more quickly and more efficiently than any other.

I have a campaign based response to that.

"In the Nine Planes, travelling without moving requires passage through the Dirac Sea. This echo of the void before time is inimical to mortal life. All spells that transport through the Dirac Sea (dimension door, fast teleport, &c.) or abilities that access it (the Claviger's flash step) inflict 1d4 damage each time they are used. Ley-line based techniques do not have this issue (druidic fast travel)."

So, there's a nearly trivial "teleport tax" in hit points. This doesn't really affect teleport use, makes them think twice about dimension door multiple times, and cuts down on my misty step analog. Dimension door is limited to one person in my game, but it can be someone other than the magician. Being strict-ish about the hazards of blind transport, I pretty much see d-door used for LOS teleportation or escape out side of the building or back down the tunnel.

Hang on a minute...

Okay, I have a couple of questions that I couldn't find answers to in previous posts.

1) What is the level range that you are gaming in?

2) What is the PC / Badass / Peasant ratio in your game? Are your PCs fairly unique, or are there a number of PC-standard folk wandering about- enough to have an "adventuring economy" and such?

I'm looking to be helpful as I can being someone who doesn't run 5e (although I have the PHB).

Quote from: Ratman_tf;920141Haven't played it. Interesting.

This is a pretty accurate description of the game (No, I don't trust any source that can be freely altered by me.  It's like the Groucho Marx joke, "I don't want to be part of a club that would accept me as a member.")

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;920113Trouble is, there's only so much a really well-trained warrior can realistically do to impede a flying teleporter who can magically suggest he grapple his friends to stop them from swinging those sharp objects around because, "They're going to hurt themselves!"

That said, we can at least try...

SIDEBAR - SOLUTIONS FOR THE MUNDANES

Proposal 1: Turn to page 168 of the 5e Player's handbook, look at the Mage Slayer feat, take the first and third of its abilities and make them standard rules for everyone in the campaign.
PROS: Relatively simple, actually a return to older rules from a less magically supreme era, affects every single melee NPC and monster throughout the game, increases strategic thinking as a party
CONS: Doesn't actually shut down the spells being cast so Bastardio the Magnificent is still going to vanish in a puff of smoke, doesn't help ranged attackers, casters will feel singled out and whine (but they'd do that with almost any fix, so...)

Proposal 2: Pepper your adventures with magic items that are clearly designed for non-full casters and grant abilities that allow them to stand up to full-casters. Arrows of teleport jamming, full plate of fly 1/day, horned helm of mind-control resistance, etc. Make sure the manufacturing of these items in the setting is in the hands of non-caster NPCs, like dedicated smiths who can't really fight or cast or do anything other than make items. Make sure NPC combatants make use of these items.
PROS: Getting versatility-adding magic items always feels good to players, levels the playing field for adventure design
CONS: Still fundamentally fighting magic with magic, feels like a very obvious patch to a system deficiency, magic item clutter and items not feeling 'special'

Proposal 3: Add non-magical class features or entire archetypes to non-full caster classes that help shut down magic. For example, give the battlemaster fighter a maneuver that blocks casting for 1 round on a failed save. Give the monk an ability to shrug off deleterious spell effects, give rogues an ability to spot people under the effect of charms and illusions, etc. Make sure NPCs get these abilities too.
PROS: Modern players always seen new intrinsic 'kool powerz' as a good thing, players who don't worry about caster supremacy don't feel sucked into the agenda
CONS: It's hard and time consuming man, not much design space that feels 'realistic'.

Proposal 4: Grant either the grapple rules or the grapple feat the explicit ability to shut down verbal, somatic, and material component use (cover mouth or grab throat, disrupt hand gestures, knock away components, etc). You could even let it block line of sight for spell targeting (cover their eyes).
PROS: Relatively simple, very appropriate to fantasy fiction, works for all creatures including the crucial city guards trying to make an arrest
CONS: It's basically a hardcore save-or-suck effect for casters who commit the grave sin of rolling poorly for initiative, every battle involving casters will turn into a hilarious wrestling free for all, the grappling rules are often a pain even in this edition, the grappling rules are not similarly punitive for melee or ranged attacks

What do you guys think?

1) Put in a "being damaged one round means you can't cast spells the next" effect, but only for non-magical attacks (heck, maybe even make it only for non-magic weapons). A few spells might get around this, and the whole "you can zap in the middle of move" becomes a more common tactic, as players yo-yo around the battlefield...but it still does what really needs to be done: make magic not perfectly reliable. Mage Slayer needs help, I admit, it's way too unreliable and situational to seriously take as a feat.

2) Well, this was the approach to old D&D, most magic items were for fighters, after all. Nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't address the caster supremacy issue too well.

3) I'm not sure I want more kewl powers, there's plenty of that already. Go with 1).

4) Eww. D&D at its heart isn't a grappling game, and while 5e's grappling rules leave much to be desired (I reckon that's rather traditional), I see this being weak.

Just my 2c, of course. It's weird, I sure was attacked fiercely for saying there was a problem with spellcasting, a few months back...

Spell Resistance and Damage Resistances are fantastic sources for design.

First, most creatures are not being designed with enough damage resistances, period. Sheer environmental exposure (or context) should speak to damage type resistances. (Here's an easy fix against an overused clerical cantrip: anything diurnal and used to, or even needs, sunshine exposure for its health is resistant or immune to radiant damage.)

Second, spell resistances, particularly to rival schools, seem poorly tapped as of yet. Before, that stuff was more plentiful, and often very flavorful. And don't forget about immunities. School immunities could really be great additions to monster creation. ("The fabled beastie is immune to evocation and enchantment, also resistant to divination! Whatever do we do?" What about illusions?" "No you fool, they are not optimal in 5e *cough* I mean, it's too risky...")

Quote from: Doom;920091The problem with special counterspells is you're just going to "it takes a wizard to beat a wizard." If you want to end caster supremacy, the solution is not going to be "give casters more powers/options." It's that simple.

Agree - needs a martial solution

Quote from: Doom;9201691) Put in a "being damaged one round means you can't cast spells the next" effect, but only for non-magical attacks (heck, maybe even make it only for non-magic weapons). A few spells might get around this, and the whole "you can zap in the middle of move" becomes a more common tactic, as players yo-yo around the battlefield...but it still does what really needs to be done: make magic not perfectly reliable. Mage Slayer needs help, I admit, it's way too unreliable and situational to seriously take as a feat.

So buff up Mage Slayer then? This would have the benefit of giving players a solid anti-mage choice if they want it AND make it clear in the setting that elite non-casters can disrupt magic if they get up close.

Quote from: Doom;9201692) Well, this was the approach to old D&D, most magic items were for fighters, after all. Nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't address the caster supremacy issue too well.

What if there was an non-magic, anti-magic metal or something in the setting that could be crafted into mage stopping equipment like swords and manacles?

Quote from: Doom;9201694) Eww. D&D at its heart isn't a grappling game, and while 5e's grappling rules leave much to be desired (I reckon that's rather traditional), I see this being weak.

Should we dismiss this line of thought so quickly though? It has the considerable advantage of 'feeling' right. How does a caster pull of spells when a brute is twisting his arms and grabbing his jaw?

Quote from: Doom;920169It's weird, I sure was attacked fiercely for saying there was a problem with spellcasting, a few months back...

Go back to that thread and I'm pretty sure you'll find that I personally didn't attack you. I did disagree with you in neutral language at the time, but disagreement is not an attack (regardless of what outrage junkies on the internet say).

Quote from: Doom;920169Spell Resistance and Damage Resistances are fantastic sources for design... Second, spell resistances, particularly to rival schools, seem poorly tapped as of yet. Before, that stuff was more plentiful, and often very flavorful. And don't forget about immunities. School immunities could really be great additions to monster creation.

Damage is actually the least problematic thing about D&D spellcasting. If all the casters could do was artillery damage, the setting could easily adapt to reflect that in a way that makes sense.

Your suggestions are good, but note that they mostly help monsters, when it is humanoid society that needs the most protection from casters in order to continue functioning.

Quote from: Psikerlord;920295Agree - needs a martial solution

"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will cramp his style." - Steven Brust

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919842I can get away with adding spells or feats or monsters, I can adjust numbers or slightly nerf things like Wild Shape, but if I outright ban things then "it's not D&D anymore" *frowny face*. I already get enough flak for sticking to my guns on "no multiclassing".

Then you're fucked.  The tools to your problem lie in older editions, tools that were deliberately packed away.  Wrapped in the straightjacket of WotC assumptions your only option is "magical everybody", ie. 4th Edition.

Go to a different game for a while, one not quite as High Fantasy, one with different expectations.  The only way to break the "this isn't D&D" is to actually have the will to draw the line and accept the consequences of rebuilding a gaming group if need be, or to not play D&D and broaden the player's experience, then revisit once they've seen things done a different way.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;920362What if there was an non-magic, anti-magic metal or something in the setting that could be crafted into mage stopping equipment like swords and manacles?

Iron and steel are classically anti-magical. With iron manacles, a magician can't use somatic components. I add on that they can't use their highest level spells. With hand, foot, and neck irons there is so much iron that they can't cast magic at all.

To offer some consistency, people wearing medium / chain armor have +1 on their magic saves. Heavy / plate armor wearers gain +2.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;920362So buff up Mage Slayer then? This would have the benefit of giving players a solid anti-mage choice if they want it AND make it clear in the setting that elite non-casters can disrupt magic if they get up close.

No, don't buff up mage slayer. Part of the issue with caster supremacy is they get everything for free. So, any non-spellcaster (not just monsters, but character classes that are not spellcasters) get the same "spell locked" effect. If they deal non-magic damage, the recipient can't cast spells the next round (naturally, spell-like effects, like many monsters generate, are not necessarily affected by this).

Note that spellcasting/magical monsters might well not generate spell-lock effects. The idea here is that being a spellcaster actually makes you more vulnerable against non-magic.

This isn't restricted to melee, even a non-magical archer can still stop spellcasting--you're going to need this because you'll see alot more jack-in-the-box spellcasting once actually being hit is a problem...an archer on overwatch will hurt that strategy somewhat.

>>Should we dismiss this line of thought so quickly though? It has the considerable advantage of 'feeling' right. How does a caster pull of spells when a brute is twisting his arms and grabbing his jaw?>>

I'm not dismissing it out of hand, just the benefit/effort ratio is lower than I'd like. If this is the route you want to go, then just say "grappling prevents spellcasting" or at least "a concentration DC 15 check must be made or the spell is lost". It really screws Misty Step, however (granted, that spell is a little too good, but if you can't cast spells while grappled, it becomes useless).

Note: this isn't just for monsters.


>>Spell Resistance and Damage Resistances are fantastic sources for design... Second, spell resistances, particularly to rival schools, seem poorly tapped as of yet. Before, that stuff was more plentiful, and often very flavorful. And don't forget about immunities. School immunities could really be great additions to monster creation.<<

Wow, I said this? I must have been on crack, or something...this just seems gibberish to me now. When did I say this, exactly?

In any event, I agree with you, it's not just the damage-dealing that's the issue with the spellcasters. It's the high armor, high damage, high utility and nearly as high hit points, combined with unstoppable spellcasting, that really puts them over the top.

Possibly, "unstoppable spellcasting" is the weak spot here, at least that's my conjecture.


>>What if there was an non-magic, anti-magic metal or something in the setting that could be crafted into mage stopping equipment like swords and manacles?<<

As someone else said, straight up iron is good enough. As long as it's bloody common, that could work, but I think it's better to just make it part of the rules system for spellcasting than add a foozle-screws-you item.

The issue with this, of course, is no clerics can't exactly hang out in combat, as they'd risk getting spell-locked, cutting off healing. Granted, that might make for some more exciting combats...guess I'll have to start playtesting this to see how well it flies.



Should we dismiss this line of thought so quickly though? It has the considerable advantage of 'feeling' right. How does a caster pull of spells when a brute is twisting his arms and grabbing his jaw?



Go back to that thread and I'm pretty sure you'll find that I personally didn't attack you. I did disagree with you in neutral language at the time, but disagreement is not an attack (regardless of what outrage junkies on the internet say).



Damage is actually the least problematic thing about D&D spellcasting. If all the casters could do was artillery damage, the setting could easily adapt to reflect that in a way that makes sense.

Your suggestions are good, but note that they mostly help monsters, when it is humanoid society that needs the most protection from casters in order to continue functioning.[/QUOTE]