Quote from: Omega;919650Heres some options from the DMG. Restricting some class paths to certain races. Like only gnomes can be Illusionist Wizards, or able to use illusion class spells at all, and so on.

Or... drumroll please... Removing paths or removing whole classes, spells, etc.

Unfortunately your solution appears to be mutilating the game, which I'm not quite willing to do yet for the reasons I've listed previously (current game is 5e, unadulterated 5e is the game new players want, 5e is a comfort zone for busy adult players,etc)

Next section:

PART 2 - TELEPORTATION

These spells don't just make a mockery of the setting*, they kill exciting adventures dead more quickly and more efficiently than any other. Forget wasting your planning time on overland journey adventures, that's an entire genre gone from your GM tool bag once the high level teleport spells start to kick in.

Misty Step is a bonus action that only requires a verbal component. I've lost count of how many interesting dangers or challenges my wizard and warlock players have escaped unscathed with this 2nd level spell, leaving other character types begging for their assistance. But you know what, honestly this one doesn't bother me much. It's only 30ft, it's a cool thing that I feel casters should be able to do, so whatever.

The big one is Dimension Door, which shows up at only 4th level and changes the game. It takes 1 action, requires only a verbal component, allows you to take a passenger, travels an amazing 500ft, has no restrictions about needing to see the target destination, and doesn't have a % failure chart like Teleport does. Combine this with the large variety of effective scouting methods that starts to unlock at these levels and dungeons become anticlimactic, burglary and assassination become trivial sources of income and influence, and the local authorities trying to stop you become something of a joke.

There are a few tricks for dealing with it: cock-block the player by saying somebody or some critter moved through the area he was trying to teleport into, cock-block them with a magic disrupting phenomena... or use the wonderful tool provided by the system itself, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, to cock-block them! Ah yes, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, also a 4th level spell, affects a huge area, can be made permanent if you have a patient caster hireling, and stops all teleportation (and divination) totally and utterly. This solves so many problems...

But did you notice how many times I said cock-block? Notice that most of the solutions involve taking away the caster's toy? Don't be surprised when he then starts bitching about why he was even given the toy in the first place if it had to be taken for the good of the game.

That's a good question right there: Why give players options so disruptive to what the average busy human can conceive of as an interesting challenge? Why indeed D&D...

Anyway, further thoughts later, I'm running out of time again.

* Remember the Tippyverse? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

Quote from: Elfdart;919716I cant speak for later editions but OD&D, 1E and 2E made it clear that a successful attack on a spellcaster aborted any spell being cast. Add to this the low hit points and bad AC of your typical mage and no decently run campaign should be awash in spellcasters flinging around lightning bolts and fireballs like Rip Taylor does with confetti. Even high level wizards can't keep up magical defenses all the time, so a band of lowly brigands armed with missile weapons could take one down in short order if they acted intelligently.

Obviously this applies to NPC magic-users as well as PC ones.

Yep I went with a variant of this for Low Fantasy Gaming - if the magic user takes any damage before his/her turn, they cannot cast a spell that round, they have to choose something else to do. A kind of... semi-lost action, I guess, but not as brutal as completely losing a spell, or completely losing a turn. Still, not being able to cast a spell when you REALLY need to is a massive penalty, and can easy be the difference between victory/defeat/zero hp/lingering injury/etc

Hey, that leads to an interesting idea: "spellbreaker" attacks.

Certain weapons, and many monsters, have attacks that prevent spellcasting until the beginning of the attacker's next turn. And just like that, casters are no longer unstoppable, and the non-casters serve a purpose. I'm going to have to try this...

Quote from: Kyussopeth;919740This is actually something I think about quite often. However, I just came here to say I came to essentially the same place as Estar & just look at what he said & know that it is Wisdom.

Other people on here have been helpful, but I caution you against using (game) mechanical tricks, like antimagic fetishes. I think the players can/will easily abuse them too.

Appreciate the compliment.

Quote from: Doom;919794Hey, that leads to an interesting idea: "spellbreaker" attacks.

Certain weapons, and many monsters, have attacks that prevent spellcasting until the beginning of the attacker's next turn. And just like that, casters are no longer unstoppable, and the non-casters serve a purpose. I'm going to have to try this...

That's a neat idea. I might add that to my game I'm writing. I allow defenders to use their Defense or Spell skill, whichever is greater, to defend against magic which makes it more likely someone can defend against it.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919768Unfortunately your solution appears to be mutilating the game, which I'm not quite willing to do yet for the reasons I've listed previously (current game is 5e, unadulterated 5e is the game new players want, 5e is a comfort zone for busy adult players,etc)

Next section:

PART 2 - TELEPORTATION

These spells don't just make a mockery of the setting*, they kill exciting adventures dead more quickly and more efficiently than any other. Forget wasting your planning time on overland journey adventures, that's an entire genre gone from your GM tool bag once the high level teleport spells start to kick in.

Misty Step is a bonus action that only requires a verbal component. I've lost count of how many interesting dangers or challenges my wizard and warlock players have escaped unscathed with this 2nd level spell, leaving other character types begging for their assistance. But you know what, honestly this one doesn't bother me much. It's only 30ft, it's a cool thing that I feel casters should be able to do, so whatever.

The big one is Dimension Door, which shows up at only 4th level and changes the game. It takes 1 action, requires only a verbal component, allows you to take a passenger, travels an amazing 500ft, has no restrictions about needing to see the target destination, and doesn't have a % failure chart like Teleport does. Combine this with the large variety of effective scouting methods that starts to unlock at these levels and dungeons become anticlimactic, burglary and assassination become trivial sources of income and influence, and the local authorities trying to stop you become something of a joke.

There are a few tricks for dealing with it: cock-block the player by saying somebody or some critter moved through the area he was trying to teleport into, cock-block them with a magic disrupting phenomena... or use the wonderful tool provided by the system itself, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, to cock-block them! Ah yes, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, also a 4th level spell, affects a huge area, can be made permanent if you have a patient caster hireling, and stops all teleportation (and divination) totally and utterly. This solves so many problems...

But did you notice how many times I said cock-block? Notice that most of the solutions involve taking away the caster's toy? Don't be surprised when he then starts bitching about why he was even given the toy in the first place if it had to be taken for the good of the game.

That's a good question right there: Why give players options so disruptive to what the average busy human can conceive of as an interesting challenge? Why indeed D&D...

Anyway, further thoughts later, I'm running out of time again.

* Remember the Tippyverse? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

Let break it down

First off 5e wizards have a limited number of prepared spells. A 20 Int 7th level wizard (the first level capable of Dimenson Door) has exactly 1 4th level spell slot, and 12 prepared spells in which to target 11 total slots. (4,3,3,1)

So when we talk about this stuff you need to keep that in mind.

Misty Step - Whatever, inventive PCs come up with numerous ways of getting 30 feet without having to touch the floor in between. This is just another way in actual play. Remember it is Line of Sight only. And you get Spider Climb and Levitate with 2nd levels too. Definitely making a mountain out of a molehill with this.

Dimension Door - a very nice 4th level spell. And at 7th level you got one slot to burn using it. You get up to 3 4th level spell quickly as you level but stay there for a long long time.

However you are forgetting that it require knowledge of the destination. I.e. the caster has to pick a specific location within the spell's range. Unlike the 7th level spell Teleport you can't just visualize a kitchen at the Bloody Basilisk in Haghill and teleport there. No you have to say something like "I teleport 200 feet northeast and up 10 feet."

So if you use Dimension Door blind, you are gambling that you are not going to appear in a wall or something similar. IN fact in AD&D 1st, the dimension door spell's description was expanded to account for this. You didn't die but you were stranded in the astral plane if you were unable to materialize in the destination because of an obstruction.

If used the spell would be used as a surefire way of retreating. As a tool for exploration it is of limited use.

As for Teleport it is a 7th level spell. It powerful as befits a 7th level spell. However it more versatile use is the most risky. Teleporting into an area based on a description or knowledge alone. I don't see an issue with teleport.

Finally Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum totally negates this being an issue

It's doable IF...

If you are willing to take the time to work in charms and counter spells.

If you add a culture versed in magic and immunized against rogue casters.

If you add specific classes and professions dedicated to protecting important people from magical harm or influence and tracking down rogue casters.  

If you edit the spell list.  

That's a lot of work right there but I think it would be worth while.  If you do it all care to share you notes?  I would use a lot of them.

But here's the big one.  IF you get players as immersed in the setting as you are.  You mentioned time and commitment are in short supply that's why you want to play 5th ed.  Well 5th Ed has easy effective magic.  Your problem is magic is too easy and effective.  Low commitment players think about gaming like Video Gaming.  I push these buttons and they work.  You need them to think like wizards, (not scientists).  Or Cold War spies.  Move counter, move.  Tracking, servelence, subtle influence, if you get caught you'll be hung.  That sounds like a cool campaign to me, but from the sounds of it your players don't have time for that.

Leaves you with Three options.  No PC casters, All PC casters.  Encounters come with someone who shuts casters down, or who the caster hast to shut down, tieing them up so the other players stay relevant.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919768Unfortunately your solution appears to be mutilating the game, which I'm not quite willing to do yet for the reasons I've listed previously (current game is 5e, unadulterated 5e is the game new players want, 5e is a comfort zone for busy adult players,etc)

How so? Its in the 5e rules. Past editions played with this too like removing clerics or druids, or vastly restricting the access to classes and making magic ALOT harder to cast.

Take a look at how Masque of the Red Death overhaulded the magic system and really curbed casters. Sure they could still be powerful. But that power now came at much more severe a cost.

Quote from: Omega;919816How so? Its in the 5e rules. Past editions played with this too like removing clerics or druids, or vastly restricting the access to classes and making magic ALOT harder to cast.

Take a look at how Masque of the Red Death overhaulded the magic system and really curbed casters. Sure they could still be powerful. But that power now came at much more severe a cost.

What part of 'unadulterated' in the section you quoted was unclear?

Well, ok, you've got me a little bit, but only a little. You have to understand my player base, about 10 regulars split between two groups with frequent newbies/casuals dropping by. I can get away with adding spells or feats or monsters, I can adjust numbers or slightly nerf things like Wild Shape, but if I outright ban things then "it's not D&D anymore" *frowny face*. I already get enough flak for sticking to my guns on "no multiclassing".

You play with the friends you have, not the platonic ideal gamers you want.

(But good reference to Masque of the Red Death there, I really liked that source book. Too bad it was too niche to succeed, like most things that stray too far from core D&D)

You can still step lightly on the system with only a few MAJOR tweaks.

Not much you can do on the equalized XP goals. Not much you can do on an entire corpus of spells — besides severely tightened GM reading judgment ('cuz I mean, you have a life elsewhere,). Not much you can do on class, race, feat, & feature unintended consequences with spells ('cuz, again, you have a life,).

So when you do choose to step on the game, it should be deliberate and thoroughly maximizing steps, in order to be as few yet as powerful as possible.

Also banning outright is one of your best friends. Think of it as the surgical laser of corrective measures. Its precision preserves the most surrounding tissue untouched. Spot removal is a fantastic resource for all design. Oh sure it gets flak from entitled players, but name me something that lowers power that doesn't.

Egos will be bruised, but most people don't like medicine of any sort. And here's the kicker: you already do not like the status quo. Regardless of your accomodation attempts you will eventually reach a cost:benefit analysis (even after sunk cost theory) where you'll just walk because it is no longer fun. So you bruise them now so they will even have you as a GM later; because from where I am sitting it doesn't sound like anyone else is stepping up to the plate.

You're a human being, not a CPU server. Live like one.

Quote from: Doom;919794Hey, that leads to an interesting idea: "spellbreaker" attacks.

Certain weapons, and many monsters, have attacks that prevent spellcasting until the beginning of the attacker's next turn. And just like that, casters are no longer unstoppable, and the non-casters serve a purpose. I'm going to have to try this...

Yeah it seems to work well from what I've seen - it's a concrete danger, but not overwhelming, and makes positioning and teamwork more important.

Idea for critique, draft 1:

Dimensional Jam
2nd-level abjuration
Available to Wizard
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you can take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you teleporting.
Range: 60 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

At the last minute you prevent a creature from teleporting. If the teleportation effect was the result of a spell, the spell has no effect and is lost.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;920026Idea for critique, draft 1:

Dimensional Jam
2nd-level abjuration
Available to Wizard
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you can take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you teleporting.
Range: 60 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

At the last minute you prevent a creature from teleporting. If the teleportation effect was the result of a spell, the spell has no effect and is lost.

You want to add to all the teleportation spells something like the following

Misty Step
2nd-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

A silvery mist boils out of the ground, a second later you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see.


Dimension Door
4th-level conjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 500 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

A door of light appears, step through a second later and teleport yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as “200 feet straight downward” or “upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle, 300 feet.”

You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed what you can carry. You can also bring one willing creature of your size or smaller who is carrying gear up to its carrying capacity. The creature must be within 5 feet of you when you cast this spell.

If you would arrive in a place already occupied by an object or a creature, you and any creature traveling with you each take 4d6 force damage, and the spell fails to teleport you

Teleport
7th-level conjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

The air shimmers around you and a second later this spell instantly transports you and up to eight willing creatures of your choice that you can see within range, or a single object that you can see within range, to a destination you select. If you target an object, it must be able to fit entirely inside a 10-foot cube, and it can’t be held or carried by an unwilling creature.

The destination you choose must be known to you, and it must be on the same plane of existence as you. Your familiarity with the destination determines whether you arrive there successfully. The GM rolls d100 and consults the table.


Mind you I think you are still making a mountain out of a molehill by trying to fix this with rules. However if this is the route you want to take, then you want to modify the existing spells so the player can see the connection to how the counter spells work. It shows that you thought it through on how your setting wrote and be likely to be perceived as a fair ruling. They may not like it better over than raw. But that goes to personal taste and there is nothing you can do about that except to make the rest of your campaign as awesome as you can make it.

The problem with special counterspells is you're just going to "it takes a wizard to beat a wizard." If you want to end caster supremacy, the solution is not going to be "give casters more powers/options." It's that simple.

Quote from: Doom;920091The problem with special counterspells is you're just going to "it takes a wizard to beat a wizard." If you want to end caster supremacy, the solution is not going to be "give casters more powers/options." It's that simple.

Yep. It would probably turn into wizards duking it to to decide the fate of the muggles. (Which isn't a terrible idea for a campaign.)
Really, the end product of caster supremacy might be the non-casters goading all the casters into fighting each other, and then killing them when they're weakened and out of spells.
But then the campaign would still be focused on the casters. Instead of having iconic D&D adventures it would be about how wizards suck and vive la resistance.