Quote from: Omega;916269No. What I think hes saying is that theres more than one possible logic to a dungeon and wandering monsters.

They just moved in or the place is in a constant state of flux.

They were brought there.

They are part of the dungeon ecology.

Something drew them there

They dont have supplies. Hence why they are ranging out and raiding.

Guards and patrolls.

Just normal inhabitants on their way from point A to B.

Couriers and messengers either delivering or leaving after delivery.

Something thats been awakened after an unknown time in stasis.

and so on.

Stolen!

Quote from: David Johansen;916119Wandering monsters are really a mechanism to encourage focus.  If you talk for ten minutes your characters talk for ten minutes and a wandering monster is apt to appear and sap your precious resources without providing much in the way of rewards.

I tend to make them appropriate to the setting and adventure but they can be a patrol or a ravening beast at need.

Whatever it takes to keep the game moving.

Yep.

Of course, the fact that wandering monsters can be negotiated with ALSO opens up a whole new realm of possibilities.

But if your players are wasting time, just roll that ol' d6.

For some of us, the weird-ass possibilities of the wandering monster table as written is a feature.

As is the fact that in OD&D at least you have a 1/6 chance of getting a 4th level wandering monster on the 1st level, many of which (wight, wraith, gargoyle to name 3) are pretty much guaranteed to kill an entire group of 1st level PCs if they insist on standing and fighting.

Quote from: Harlock;916479I like logic well enough, but I figure my dungeons fall more into a game logic state. I don't need a reason for every critter being in each room, planned with access to fresh water, sewage, and the monster ATM. I'm not designing a real city, but a game one. Every game glosses over some things, or it would be pure tedium to play. That said, I'm not likely to have a Sphinx guarding a room in a kobolds' cave system. Unless it was in Australia. All bets are off in Australia. Oh, and in deep oceanic waters where no light reaches and critters develop into crazy monsters of all shapes, sizes and self illuminations. Huh, guess there are cases of crazy ecologies developing in isolation after all. Perhaps even some accepted examples in classic fantasy literature, my precious. But those should be the exception and not the norm, to my thinking.

You just hit on a very important point Harlock, one that explains a number of our disagreements and a vastly different approach where wandering monsters are concerned to.

Your term "game logic", indicating the existence of something and how it behaves be it a monster, location, NPC or what have you is created by the GM to fit the 'game'. This is very very different from someone creating a setting, say for purposes of a fictional story, screen play etc. What would work just fine as a game element but might not make enough sense to fit smoothly into a work of fiction or what have you. That seems like a given and many GMs would probably responds "Well duh, we are running a game after all."

But the fact is some GMs treat their world as a work of fiction first, and then let players loose in it. Its a subtle difference but it explains so much in the way of priorities concerning how the setting is developed and even more, as the game is played. When you commented "Im not designing a real city, but a game one." I had to stop and blink while my brain processed that. To my mind a city designed for use in a game is no different than designing a real one, conceptually. I cant imagine making a decision while involved in the process based on the 'game', rather the setting is created pretty much independently.

Keeping this difference in mind is key to understanding where the other half is coming from and avoiding misunderstandings and unintentional slights. Im going to try harder to do just that.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;916499For some of us, the weird-ass possibilities of the wandering monster table as written is a feature.

As is the fact that in OD&D at least you have a 1/6 chance of getting a 4th level wandering monster on the 1st level, many of which (wight, wraith, gargoyle to name 3) are pretty much guaranteed to kill an entire group of 1st level PCs if they insist on standing and fighting.

One reason we led a mule. It gave the gargoyle something to eat while we ran away.

Quote from: rgrove0172;916512But the fact is some GMs treat their world as a work of fiction first, and then let players loose in it. Its a subtle difference but it explains so much in the way of priorities concerning how the setting is developed and even more, as the game is played. When you commented "Im not designing a real city, but a game one." I had to stop and blink while my brain processed that. To my mind a city designed for use in a game is no different than designing a real one, conceptually. I cant imagine making a decision while involved in the process based on the 'game', rather the setting is created pretty much independently.

That caused a lot of confusion in the early years of EPT.  Phil had created Tekumel decades before D&D even came out.  Tekumel was a setting with a game put over it, whereas Blackmoor and Greyhawk both came about because somebody wanted to run a game and needed a world for it.

I'm firmly in the latter camp, which is why when Phil started ragging on me for "this dungeon makes no sense, what do the monsters eat?" I put a McDonald's on the 7th level.  "The monsters eat FUCK YOU, Phil, that's what they eat."

I've had dungeons with lizardman bouncers that charged 25gp admissions and a Crazy Jorge's Mercantile waggon parked outside where most things on the price list can be had for only twice the usual price, a bargain this far from town even if they're slightly used.

Want to see your PCs freak?  Add a friendly clown to the wandering monster list.

Rob Kuntz fireballed Ronald McDonald at my McDonald's on the 7th level.  It was long enough ago that Ronald still had his Flying Hamburger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joOZdFQmpn8

I had totally forgotten that damn song.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;916498Of course, the fact that wandering monsters can be negotiated with ALSO opens up a whole new realm of possibilities.

That aspect was overlooked too often, and largely eliminated in later editions. Foolish, really, since it dramatically changes the game. In OD&D and B/X, nothing says goblins (frex) are inherently "chaotic stupid" and attack on sight. Heck, with a good Charisma and lucky roll, they will love the guy talking to them. Smart early-edition players end up talking their way through things that later editions default as having to hack through, because it was built into the game that way.

Quote from: Bren;916513One reason we led a mule. It gave the gargoyle something to eat while we ran away.

That's wisdom. Most of my players seem to rely upon a heroically noble/suicidal fighter to fulfill that role.

Quote from: David Johansen;916516Want to see your PCs freak?  Add a friendly clown to the wandering monster list.

Oh man, consider that idea stolen. Was thinking about starting up our old WFRP 1e campaign. A friendly-creepy clown in the Old World will be all kinds of nightmare-inducing fun.

Quote from: Bren;916528I had totally forgotten that damn song.

You're welcome.

Forget what iteration of D&D. But at least one pointed out that wandering monsters could also be a good source of backup if youve lost a party member or just want to boost your force. Negotiate with them.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;916530That's wisdom. Most of my players seem to rely upon a heroically noble/suicidal fighter to fulfill that role.

Well...those guys are cheaper than mules.* But we had a shortage of heroically dumb PCs and had to make do with mules.



* In fact with proper planning and shared costs on dungeon supplies, the heroically dumb can be a profitable addition to the party in more than one way.

Quote from: Doom;916115I put real effort into the dungeon making sense. If it's a sealed vault, you better believe the dungeon will be based around traps, undead, demons, devils, and elementals--things that generally don't die or have much to keep on existing. Naturally, such dungeons are a little limited on wandering monsters (there are exceptions), so I try to put some sort of time limit, to keep players from going 5', taking a long rest, repeat.

On the other hand, if dungeon is a cave, then I do try to have it make sense (not necessarily geological sense, but ecological). So, yeah, there's almost always a water source, there's some explanation for what the denizens do for food (I explain to players that caloric requirements aren't the same in fantasy land, which is also why the players carry a week's worth of food and water without falling over), and when I have wandering monsters, they come from somewhere, either nearby rooms (investigating noise the players make), or nearby caves (investigating why the usual guards seem to be dead), or, well, wandering up from lower caves.

I'm not saying my dungeon set-ups are viable enough to pass a economics class...but they're at least feasible for a few days, which is all that is necessary for most dungeon expeditions.

Yep, agree - I think ideally the GM should tailor the random encounter table to the situation, so that a sealed dungeon's inhabitants make sense as you suggest above, and so on. I think it's important to that the wandering monsters make some sense (maybe not a lot, but some!)

Quote from: Omega;916134Um... False?

Wandering monsters may be on patrol, may be hunting, any number of reasons other than "sap your resources". And they might not even be hostile.

As someone who played too much 3.5ed with DMs who thought that wandering monsters were "stupid" in game terms the main purpose of wandering monsters is to make time in a dungeon a precious commodity. Any time you spend time doing ANYTHING you pay a price in terms of wandering monsters so it's important to weigh your options and be a miser with your time. Otherwise you end up with adventurers who always search every inch of every room and always take a nap after each fight.

Of course there are other ways to make time precious in D&D, it's just that wandering monsters are one way of doing that. Without time being precious a lot of the dungeon crawling mechanics start to fall apart.