All classic Judges Guild D&D products (City State of the Invincible Overlord, Wilderlands of High Fantasy...) appeared before I started gaming, but now many of them are available online. Are they good? Which ones do you recommend? And what about the 3E version?

The Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set is an excellent resource if you can find it. I hear that copies are somewhat pricey nowadays, though.

It's an old school swords and sorcery style setting with 18 large area maps ideal for hex crawling.

Quote from: Frey;915170All classic Judges Guild D&D products (City State of the Invincible Overlord, Wilderlands of High Fantasy...) appeared before I started gaming, but now many of them are available online. Are they good? Which ones do you recommend? And what about the 3E version?

Note that I am one of or the author of some of the 3e Judges Guild products.

Most of the D&D related Judges Guild products are available as PDFs on RPGNow.


City State of the Invincible Overlord is the one that started the line and is a complete city. There is a 3E version that is fleshed out but consistent with the original. Stats are minimal in favor of description text.

Judges Guild has a setting called the Wilderlands of High Fantasy. The original and the 3e version are both available as PDFs on RPGnow. Not the originals don't come with maps. Like City-State, the boxed set version expands on the original and is consistent with it. The Wilderlands are the canonical example of a hexcrawl setting.  The map is a series of numbered hexes which the entire keyed by hex number. It large with 18 maps covering an area the size of Western Europe. There is little in the way of high level detail allowing you to make the setting into whatever you want. It strength in in local level detail like ruins, lairs, villages, and castles expaned to an area the size of Western Europe.

I am one of the authors of the boxed set.

Anything by Jaquays is good and are considered classics. For example Dark Tower, Caverns of Tharcia, and the Book of Treasure Maps I.

The Ready Ref Sheet compile the various random charts that Judges Guild like to pepper their product with. It great if you are running classic D&D especially OD&D.

There also a series of Wilderness books that expand the detail of a region of 5 miles hexes from the bigger maps. It only six that cover various area on Map 1 City-State. Mines Custalon, The Spies of Lightelf, etc. They are mid range in Judges Guild Quality.

Tegel Manor, Thieve of Badabaskor, and Citadel of Fire are classic adventures by Bob Bledsaw. Tegel Manor is the only complete megadungeon ever published from back in the day. Note that in order to use, you need to pay careful attention to the notes on the maps as well as the text. Also Tegel demands a lot of improvisation skill from the referee because at best you have one or two sentance, and some one word maps notes to detail a room.

Citadel of Fire also has some quirks in that it is better used as an "evil town" than a dungeon. The same with Thieves of Badabaskor.

I wrote the 3rd edition Adaptation of Thieves of Badabaskor (Goodman Games). I opted for expanding the details of the original and I doubled down on the whole evil town premise. The 3e Citadel of Fire is rubbish in my opinion and pretty much its own thing and not all faithful to the original. The 3E Dark Tower is a edited version of the original with 3e stats and maps slightly cleaned up. I did the cartography for all three.

The Castle books, and the Village Book have dozens of maps and useful tables pertaining to castles and villages. The maps are black and white and very useful.

I will be glad to answer any specific questions about any of the Judges Guild products.

Thanks! Although a primer would be nice, too many supplements.

Another question: what makes the Wilderlands special? How is the setting different from Greyhawk or the Known World?

I think the Wilderlands of Fantasy 3E version is good. I like it better than the OD&D versions which are a little too spartan for me. The main conceptual difference between most game settings and Wilderlands is the hex as a unit for things. Some hexes are left blank for the DM to fill as he likes and others have locations or encounters listed.

A random copy-paste from a random page (the number is the hex number):

Quote0818 Nixie Lair (EL 14): On the eastern shore of Council Lake, near the confluence of the River Briskly, is an underwater village of nixies. The 95 nixies (CR 1; hp 3 each) will play tricks on anyone camping nearby, and will attempt to charm anyone who disturbs them. Their village is 40 feet underwater. They fear the witches of the marshes to the west, and will be friendly if anyone is proven the enemy of the witches.

0823 SPRINGLE (Small Town): Conventional; AL CG; TL 6; 800 gp limit; Assets 36,600 gp; Population 1,464 (Able bodied 366); Mixed (human 79% [mostly Tharbrian and Alryan, some Skandiks and Altanians], halfling 9%, elf 5%, dwarf 3%, others 4%); Resources: Sulfur. Authority Figure: Hanutar, male Tharbrian NG Ftr8. Important  characters: Josai, female Tharbrian NG Com2/Wiz2 (leading exporter of sulfur, rival to Arnsen of Red Cliffe); Texar, male Alryan Com6 (head of the mining gangs); Langston, male Tharbrian Wiz5 (area researcher in the hot springs). Lord Hanutar is sympathetic with Lady Tenava's fight but won't help as it would violate several treaties with the World Emperor. The region has many hot springs and sulfur deposits. The sulfur is mined and shipped back to the City State where is eagerly used by wizards and alchemists.

A copy-paste from a recent post I made on another forum with the same question:

Keep in mind that the Wilderlands as a setting is vastly different from Greyhawk, or any other D&D setting for that matter. In some ways, it's exactly the opposite of that kind of setting. For the most part, there are no nations per se (or even much information on how individual settlements relate to each other), nor is there much in the way of history, pantheons or cultures. It assumes that most of that kind of detail will be supplied by the individual DM.

You could treat the Wilderlands as a gritty sword-and-sorcery setting or you could treat it like Middle Earth. Some of the later supplements like Witches Court Marshes drill down into a relatively small region and attempt to provide more detail - but IMO, those are really only one possible interpretation of basic information previously provided in the regional books.

Necromancer Games' later re-interpretation of the Wilderlands for 3e goes into a lot more detail about every individual hex location, but again, IMO, it would be a mistake to assume that is anything but one possible interpretation of what the original JG material could mean.

Some basic facts about the Wilderlands as I see them:

- Demihumans, Humanoids and Humans are intermixed throughout the world. A dwarf settlement might be a mile away from an elf settlement. A mostly human settlement might be ruled over by an orc or an elf village controlled by a halfling. There are some predominately demi-human/humanoid areas, but they are not large nations by any means.

- The Gods are mostly taken from real-world mythology. Think of it like including ALL the pantheons from Deities and Demigods EVERYWHERE. You could have a temple of Zeus and a temple of Quetzalcoatl in the same city. If that bothers you - you could always just interpret that to mean there is a Wilderlands equivalent of those real world deities and call them whatever you want.

- There are anachronistic artifacts and relics everywhere. That means the players might pull up that rotten log and find a crashed UFO or a Panzer. Again, if that bothers you, just work it into your own vision and make up an explanation you can live with.

- There are villages everywhere but very, very few towns and cities. You can either go with that as is, or start placing cities and towns wherever you feel appropriate. Unlike Greyhawk, it's possible to just slap down Haven or some other thing from a different publisher and you won't have to do a whole lot of revision or worry about breaking the setting.

- The JG toolkit books (Castles, Villages, Temples) are really useful for detailing almost every part of the Wilderlands, and IMO, were intended as such. Hex 0304 is a castle for example and you know how many people live there and the name of the ruler, his class and level. What that castle looks like, what's really going on there and it's role in the area is entirely up to you.

- Similarly, the JG adventures can be placed almost anywhere. Badabaskor or Tegel Manor doesn't have to be wherever it says it is and moving it will not matter one bit.

Quote from: Frey;915207Thanks! Although a primer would be nice, too many supplements.

Another question: what makes the Wilderlands special? How is the setting different from Greyhawk or the Known World?

The Wilderlands existed before Greyhawk or the Known World. In fact, it was the first published campaign setting, the second being Dave Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign, which was in fact the first campaign setting ever to exist, but the second one to be published because Dave saw (and also played in) the Wilderlands setting, and then asked Bob Bledsaw to create a published version of his Blackmoor campaign setting, which Bob readily agreed to. They even made conjoined maps so if you exited the Southwestern edge of Blackmoor you would find yourself in the Valley of the Ancients in the Northeast corner of the Wilderlands.

TSR at that time (1977-78) had no campaign setting and would not have a campaign setting until 1980 when Greyhawk and Mystara were published.  

Most GMs made up their own campaign settings. I had two by 1978, One was an Ancient Roman setting on a distant fantasy oceanic tropical world, filled with pirates and fell undead. My second campaign setting was a generic fantasy mashup continent that included places from some of my favorite fantasy authors...this campaign setting I named Tamerthya  after the highland queen in the Jannissary novels by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournellle. On this continent there were some central highlands that featured holds of the Dragonriders (Pern) and some tolkienuesqe Vales and valleys for hobbits and Elves surrounded by orc infested mountain chains. In the east was The Land, based on many of the Kingdoms from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeleiever, and I had Urviles, and Andelain, and the lands of the Bloodguard, as well as Revelwood, Wildwood, and Garroting Deep, as well as the stonemelders and woodmelders. In the South a great jungle with the legendary Amazons, and in the Southeast human fuedal kingdoms. I lost both of these in 1985 when my ex-wife sold all of my gaming stuff for pennies on the dollar in a fit of spite.

TSR finally published Gary's home campaign Greyhawk in 1980 for AD&D, this was just about simultaneously published along with Mystara at TSR for 0D&D or Basic D&D. Mystara was a very genetic setting, created by Aaron Allston, Frank Mentzer, Bruce Heard, Dave Cook, and Ann Dupuis (yes, that Ann who later went on to publish Fudge.). Greyhawk was Gary's baby, and the setting was developed in conjunction with the RPGA Judges who wrote campaign modules for various "events" at gaming conventions which filled in the details of the Greyhawk World. The TSR Staffers continued to support BD&D and the Mystara campaign setting all the way until TSR collapsed, but Mystara was for home consumption, and being for basic D&D was shunned by the 1e AD&D crowd. Also I don''t recall seeing many events at game shows in the 80's and 90's for Mystara. I regularly attended Ghengis Con in Colorado, during that time frame.

What made the Wilderlands special? It was the first published setting. It is also the largest campaign setting that has ever been published. See for yourself...

The Entire Wilderlands campaign setting from the 2011 Notre Dame RPG Club gamefest;

Photo Credit: Amanda Gray

I *love* Judges Guild products! I have most of the original Wilderlands stuff, only for some reason I never bought "Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches" back around 1980. I have since purchased it as a PDF, and I did buy the entire Wilderlands Map pack, too, as a PDF. I also have plenty of other JG stuff, like all of the Pegasus magazines, plenty of modules (Treasure Maps, Kelnore, etc). I like the basic framework, to which I can customize the details. Even if I use a very detailed module (whether JG or some other company/author), I'm always going to change some things around, especially now that players can find things online. Plus you usually need to change some things to fit in with your own campaign, such as increasing/decreasing the strength of the opponents/monsters the party will have to defeat, just to keep things "fair."

What I really like about the Wilderlands is it saves me the time to create large geographical areas, and there are so many "empty" hexes that I can drop in new villages, add creeks and other geographical details, new dungeons, etc. When I DMed many years ago, I used photocopies of the original Wilderlands maps, and had to use Wite-Out to make changes. Now, however, I can edit the graphics on my computer--much nicer! I also use spreadsheets and word-processing software to update notes and charts about locations, plus I map some hexes in greater detail, etc.

The descriptions in the Wilderlands books about lairs & isles give the DM just a nugget of an adventure, and then the DM can flesh things out in greater detail. I also don't think it necessarily ties you to any particular rule system or version, as many of the descriptions are pretty generic.

I haven't used any other backgrounds or settings, as I am quite satisfied with the Wilderlands. Regarding Frey's original questions, most of the original Judges Guild stuff is available online. Don't worry about which edition, as it is easy to convert between systems (although it will take some work by the DM to revise things).

I would recommend one of the City State packages (of the World Emperor or of the Invincible Overlord), also Tarantis is a slightly smaller city than the CSWE or CSIO, but still adds lots of details. Tarantis, for example, will give you lots of ideas for military patrols of various areas, religions in the area (and when their festival days are held), various competing factions, spying organizations, and lots more. And although the CSWE or CSIO might be too much detail to begin with, Tarantis might be a nice city to start with, although if the DM wants to start a party in a large city, the DM should REALLY study the city first!

The Books of Treasure Maps can also give you ideas about how to "seed" a campaign with things like having characters find a portion of a treasure map to whet their appetite. Frontier Forts of Kelnore offers a "standardized" fortress setting that you can drop in to multiple locations, so you don't have to design unique citadels for every location.

I currently have a campaign taking place in the SE area of the Tarantis map, and the NE area of the Ebony Coast map.Those areas were originally in Wilderlands of High Fantasy (Tarantis map) and Wilderlands of the Magic Realm (Ebony Coast map).

Some players prefer glitzy products, with lots of glossy color printing, but I would actually prefer lower cost products that give good bang for the buck, like the original Judges Guild pulp products!

Rusty DM

My problem with most of the Wilderlands stuff is that is was mostly incoherent gibberish, almost indistinguishable from randomly generated stuff.

A good comparison is with most of Traveller's Imperium. You get the basic codes for 100s of worlds, but very few are fleshed out and many don't make sense. And conversely, so everything is detailed, albeit in a very sparse manner, there's no room for your stuff, simply fleshing out what is already there.

It's not like it's a played in world, something that grew from a campaign. It simply seems rolled up on the various tables JG loves to use.

As to their other adventures, it really varies a lot from product to product. The Jaquays stuff is as good as anything ever produced. Inferno is pretty good (and the author recently published the rest of it on DTRPG). I also really liked their Treasure Maps series, especially the III, which are a bunch of small dungeons.

Years ago a friend gave me as a Christmas gift a big stack of JG stuff he found mixed in with old magazines on the bottom shelf at a used book store.

It was one of the best Christmas gifts I ever received.

If you like like old-school D&D and you see a JG product somewhere for a reasonable price, grab it! It's good shit.

Quote from: JeremyR;915266My problem with most of the Wilderlands stuff is that is was mostly incoherent gibberish, almost indistinguishable from randomly generated stuff.

It's not like it's a played in world, something that grew from a campaign. It simply seems rolled up on the various tables JG loves to use.

I concur.  I was quite disappointed when I found some old JG stuff and grabbed it, having heard so much about it, only to realize that a couple of hours with a web generator would have given me the same thing.

I get that Back In The Day before computers were cheap and ubiquitous these kinds of pregenerated random list output products had value, but today not so much.  And I think a lot of the time "gonzo" is a retroactive rationalization for "random and incoherent".

Quote from: daniel_ream;915273I concur.  I was quite disappointed when I found some old JG stuff and grabbed it, having heard so much about it, only to realize that a couple of hours with a web generator would have given me the same thing.

I get that Back In The Day before computers were cheap and ubiquitous these kinds of pregenerated random list output products had value, but today not so much.  And I think a lot of the time "gonzo" is a retroactive rationalization for "random and incoherent".

Ehhh? show me any web generator that can generate a double set of maps that covers 5'6"x8'6" of table space. You need a 6x9 table just to layout one set of the Wilderland maps. Lots more spaces is needed to layout the additional maps of the various city-states.  CSIO 22"x44  CSWO 17"x22" Tarantis 17"x22" Judges guild always included two sets of such maps for the campaign series, a fully keyed Judges set, ands a mostly blank players set.

No one ...in fact, ...has made a coherent mapping system since then that would let you duplicate the effort that went into producing the original maps of the Wilderlands. Never mind doing better... I challenge you to show me a "Web Generator" that could create even one complete set of campaign maps that covers a 6'x9' table. Now when you can create just one such megamap, then be able to burn 10,000 copies and have those copies available for distribution for about $50 a wack (which is what a full set of original maps would have cost back when they were new, get back to me. Then you might be able to run your trap, and I'd be interested in listening.    

You f&%%^ idiots running your f**#^^% mouths about "gonzo" and "random and incoherent" are absolutely f((&%&& clueless about the quality, scope and scale of production back in the day.

Almost anyone here having a full set of the Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon subsystem, (which, I would argue almost none of you here do have even being able to buy them on the cheap as pdfs) ...and half a brain, could make a completely original 0D&D gaming world in just a few weeks time, following the very unrandom and coherent process outlined in those skinny books. You haven't actually looked close enough to be able to tell there's a coherent process in there, have you?

The most amazing thing about all of this...  You could create these absolutely beautiful maps, and your own unique fantasy campaign, without even ever having to touch a computer or some other retarded retrograde handheld device that you slavishly log into every. single. day. just to learn how incredibly. stupid. you. already. are.

If you haven't been able to generate even one coherent and exciting 17"x22" fantasy map using the Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon subsystem, it's because you are either too lazy, or too dense to grok the material that is presented for you...

Sometimes I weep for the younger generation. They probably are going to be led off into slavery.

Please don't post your objections to the most awesome works of Bob Bledsaw and the original Judges Guild anymore, because you'll simply be shaming your children and grandchildren, when they come to see what you have contributed to RPG gaming. (Which is, ...so far as I can tell so far, nothing more than a snide comment about one of the truly great RPG designers)

Just to give you even the slightest inkling of just how extremely difficult it is to publish on that scale, back in 2013 Bob Jr. at Judges Guild doing a kickstarter, collected $95,000, that's almost a hundred grand just to recreate the original City-State of the Imperial Overlord, and he failed, and he nosed in. He was bankrupted by the publishing costs before he even started. Joseph Goodman turned around, and also did a kickstarter last year collecting $115,000 to publish just four of the original JG modules, they should be being released to the general public anytime now. That's $200,000 and three years from experienced gaming insiders ....to recreate just five of over a hundred campaign settings, modules, and supplements that Judges Guild published in just a five year span.

Now you little punks just run along now, so I can show the rest of the real gamers here just what kind of beautiful maps one can make using that awesome Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon Subsystem;

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I'm a big Wilderlands fan, I run a 5e online campaign that's been going well over a year, PCs are 13th-15th level now. Of the 3e material I'd strongly recommend the WoHF box set and the softback Player's Guide, both are available as pdf on rpgnow. I prefer the original City State to the 3e version though, no cruddy Sword & Sorcery Studios White Wolf art, and rumours properly integrated into locations.

Huh, that map looks like a mirror image of Birthright's Cerilia continent, with a whole bunch of extra island sprinkles around the coasts. It even has a Thule atop and an Anduria on the bottom.
 :cool:
Carry on!

Judges Guild materials were certainly cutting edge for the day (I was a Guild subscriber back in the 1970's) and some of the most awesome D&D products came out of their company (CSIO, Dark Tower, Thracia) but it was a hit-miss sometimes in that they put out a few products that made me go ... huh? Total duds.

I owned the entire run of Wilderlands maps at one point but found frustration in the fact that almost all of my favorite products took place in map #1, which meant that I had minimal use for the rest. I did like the fact that Dave Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign had been linked to the Wilderlands (after the fact, but still cool) and I think that the cool placenames scattered through the world are like gold for a GM who likes to "wing it" a lot. I never thought of the Wilderlands as "gonzo" but maybe it's just because we always played a certain way and so we played Wilderlands games the same as we played Greyhawk or Blackmoor or Middle-earth, or whatever. It was just one more world among many that we explored.

I can't say much about the 3E products because I've never played them and have only read through parts of them, but I do trust Rob Conley's sense of what works and what doesn't so if his name is on it the product is probably well done.