Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913241I'm in a thread where someone said we needed to "maximize the agency" of FICTIONAL F*ING CHARACTERS.

This is utterly true, and anyone who thinks differently is functionally insane.

Your also in a thread where at least two someones have now claimed that everything from Kimba to Macross is a cover for pedophillia and misogyny because Japan is a rape culture.

Im not so sure you are right on the functional part...

Quote from: IskandarKebab;913168Shockingly, times change and the words a group prefers to identify itself changes also.

Amazingly that is my point. Since times and cultures change (or simply vary. Consider how the British use Cunt vs Americans...), attempting to ban the use of certain words is misguided at best.  

QuoteThat being said, it's their fucking choice not yours. They lived through being Black in America, they faced the prejudice and the judgment, they get to decide what they want to call themselves. The same applies to faggot, their struggle, their choice, not yours.

Really?  Then I insist YOU have to call me "Thy Lord your God!". My struggle, my choice.  

QuoteTo use a scenario that a lot of gamers can relate to, I occasionally jokingly self reference as a bit on the spectrum. Were someone to use it as an insult towards another, I'd be fucking furious. Because using it jokingly is a coping means to embrace your own weaknesses and struggles, using it as an insult degrades someone for something they had no choice in.

Grow up, Francis.

QuoteNigger carries with it a horrible legacy, it's what the KKK would shout as they murdered black americans who tried to register to vote. Nigger-lover is the chant of the crowds that attempted to lynch the freedom riders. It's the American sieg-heil, a pure expression of hatred and violence. It's the crack of the whip in the cotton fields, the brutal repression following reconstruction, the silent threat of the sundown towns, the denial of the benefits of the GI bill to men who did the same fighting as their white counterparts, the broken bodies left by the Rampart division and murder of a teenager by a deluded man who thought he could play neighborhood batman. It's an encapsulation of every promise the declaration of independence made that was broken. I grew up in North St. Louis, my friends use the word all the time. Despite the fact that they jokingly call me it every now and then, I will never use it. Because there is a fundamental divide in the America we experienced, and no matter how close we are, that word will always carry even a little baggage. And if you can't understand that, then actually open your goddamned eyes and take a look at the world around you.

Lol. Hyperbole much?  Let me quote a guy in this thread called Iskander.  

QuoteShockingly, times change and the words a group prefers to identify itself changes also.

Also, I like how you claimed you would never use 'the word' yourself, but you dropped it in this very thread twice unsolicited.

QuoteSeems like someone's been taking his red pills lately.

Wicked burn, brah.  Five years ago.  Keep up with the times. Gamergater is a bit more current, but right now its been superceded by saying I'm a Trumper or Trumpkin.  

QuoteFirst things first, I find it ironic that you are citing Voltaire, a man who was horrified by slavery, to justify your defense of using words that defines someone by their race or sex and attaches perceived flaws to it. Slurs are hurtful because they define people who aren't straight, white men as lesser because of their skin or sex.

AAwwww... you are so precious! I want to wrap you up in a bow and keep you!  

Let me break this down for ya:

'YOu can't use Voltaire cause I saw him first!'. What are you, five?

Second, did you just accuse me of being pro-slavery? I'm pretty sure you did!  Way to dodge Godwin's Law!  As soon as I get back from the plantation... lol

Third, I'm arguing from natural law and first principles on the topic of Free Speech. I have an inherent right to say whatever the fuck I like. including insulting. There is no corresponding natural right to 'not be offended'.  Between teh two of us, I'm pretty sure Voltaire would be on my side.

Fourth: Did you actually try an inverted reductio ad hitlerum?    Hitler was a vegetarian, there for vegetarians are hitler... or in your take, I, Spike, believe in Slavery (Lolwut?!) and therefor I can't believe in Voltaire?  

QuoteSince apparently subtlety is lost on you, I'll make this simple. Not using slurs=/= not using insults.

Wrong!  Or more accurately, you've been misusing the term slur.   Lets go back to the word whore, which is teh point of contention. If someone is paid to perform sexual acts they are, definitionally, a whore. The term is insulting. It only becomes a slur if you are using it to insinuate some who is not, in fact, a whore is one.   Of course that doesn't mean it can't be used as an insult.

QuoteI am not saying you can't insult someone who is a woman or a minority.

Sure you are.  Allow me to demonstrate.

 

QuoteMichele Bachmann is a conspiracy raving idiot, for example.

So, you are suggesting that, because Michele Bachmann is a woman she is (as is so very stereotypically said of women), less intelligent than men?  Are you also suggesting that women are more prone to believe in conspiracies?


That is how the game is played, and I refuse to let you play it.

QuoteBut when you use a slur like whore or nigger, you are insulting their very existence, the biological factors they cannot change. You are saying: I do not hate you because of a decision you made, I hate you because of your very nature. You strip away their agency and free will and state that the very skin they live in carries with it immense flaws they will never be able to surmount. There is never any fucking reason to insult someone's biological nature. Slurs are also one of the purest expressions of power there is. It's like shouting down from the rooftops, "I am a member of the group with power and it's the fault of your own genetics that you will never be equal to me."

Oh, man... the desire to fisk this, line by line... the temptation. Yet, it is all utterly irrelevant.  None of it changes the fact that YOU, that no one, has the right to force me not to be a jerk.  And sometimes an Insult is just and insult.  

QuoteAnd please, define "acting like a whore",

Sure. Start with 'accepting money for sex'.   Then you can, if you chose, expand 'Money' to include 'gifts, favors or other 'values', and you can expand sex to include 'favors of a sexual nature'.  So, with a slightly broad definition you can say catagorically that a stripper is a whore.  If you broaden money to include 'attention' and sex to 'prancing around half naked' you have a definition broad enough to include most uses of the term.  

QuoteI'd assume it's by dressing up sexy but ignoring you and instead going out with chad thundercock because he has more money and drives a cool car because she can't control her vagina and GODDAMMIT I'M THE REAL PERSON SHE SHOULD BE LOVING FUCK YOU STACY FROM HIGH SCHOOL!

Project much?

QuoteZak S. got paid cash (that he donated) for having sex on camera, yet I doubt you'd be calling him a whore or negatively defining him by that life choice.

Then you would be wrong. By definition Zak S. is, in fact, a whore.  As it happens, I actually rather like whores, but that doesn't mean I still don't think they've made a rather poor life choice in the process.  

QuoteI'd say grow up,

No.

 

Quoteinstead chose to carve out a cave of bitterness

Nope. Try again.

Quotewhere people trying to get you to not act like an utter asshole is the ultimate tyranny.

Anyone trying to force me to behave in any manner at all is tyranical by definition.  

QuoteSocieties changing and the power you get from being from the dominant group is lessening, tough shit.

Yeah, I got sooo much power...  This is as tired as your accusing me of taking the red pill earlier.  

,VOICE OF GOD!>J'accuse! Iskandar. You are not here to talk about elf-games. J'accuse, Iskander, that you are here under false premises, sent from the commisariat to control the narrative, to force us lowly peons to tug our forelocks in respect for the Party Line.

Quote from: Bren;913258Those damn Victorians.

What do you mean? It wasn't universal, even AFTER Victorian times, as the Nosferatu movie shows. It took Hollywood (and those AWESOME Italian B-Movies that inspired Cleric Turning) to marry sex and vampires nearly irrevocably.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913263What do you mean?

I mean Bram Stoker's Dracula, which is probably the most common source of vampire tropes in the 20th and 21st century. To that we can add Polidori's Vampyre, the Penny Dreadful Varney the Vampire, and Sheridan Le Fanu's Carmilla - lesbian vampires they didn't start in B-movies. The connection between sex, blood, and death in 19th century vampire literature is, I thought, well known.

Quote from: Omega;913259Your also in a thread where at least two someones have now claimed that everything from Kimba to Macross is a cover for pedophillia and misogyny because Japan is a rape culture.

Im not so sure you are right on the functional part...

Nearly every sexually active anime character looks like a teen if not adolescent is what I meant by "generally pedophilic", it is an art form that draws heavily on sexual attraction to the young.  You want to argue that a 14 year old who is biologically capable of reproduction isn't a child and so that isn't pedophilia, ok, fair enough, there's a lot of anime that would land inside adolescence yet outside prepubescence as far as characters go.  Of course then there's Magical Girl and the SchoolGirl fetish...

If you are correct that Hentai simply means "porn" then I'm sure there must be Hentai somewhere that doesn't include monsters or some form of intercourse that begins with forced sex and leads to orgasm because the woman really wants it despite earlier protests.  There should be "romance Hentai" or some such, and perhaps there is.  It doesn't come up when you google Hentai though, the other stuff does, hence "generally misogynistic".  Nowhere did I say Japan was a rape culture or even claim that the idea of a rape culture even exists.

If you want to flag me as ignorant of all the various subtropes, cultures and kinks of "Hentai", you have my permission to do so.

Quote from: Bren;913268I mean Bram Stoker’s Dracula, which is probably the most common source of vampire tropes in the 20th and 21st century. To that we can add Polidori’s Vampyre, the Penny Dreadful Varney the Vampire, and Sheridan Le Fanu’s Carmilla - lesbian vampires they didn't start in B-movies. The connection between sex, blood, and death in 19th century vampire literature is, I thought, well known.

It is.  I learned the concept in school as "The Byronic Vampire" pointing mainly to Polidori's seminal effect on the genesis of the Romantic Vampire (Romantic as in Romantic Authors), his vampire essentially being inspired by and criticism of Lord Byron.

The Romantic, ie. sexual vampire, has pretty much come to be by far the dominant version, starting with Dracula, becoming even more dominant recently thanks primarily to Anne Rice, not Hollywood.  But the Monstrous Vampire still exists, even though these days it's primarily in comics (30 days of Night, American Vampire, etc) and some fiction rather than on screen.

Quote from: Bren;913268I mean Bram Stoker’s Dracula, which is probably the most common source of vampire tropes in the 20th and 21st century. To that we can add Polidori’s Vampyre, the Penny Dreadful Varney the Vampire, and Sheridan Le Fanu’s Carmilla - lesbian vampires they didn't start in B-movies. The connection between sex, blood, and death in 19th century vampire literature is, I thought, well known.

I know that, but it wasn't universal, which is what I was discussing. It didn't become universal until Hollywood.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913280The Romantic, ie. sexual vampire, has pretty much come to be by far the dominant version, starting with Dracula, becoming even more dominant recently thanks primarily to Anne Rice, not Hollywood.  But the Monstrous Vampire still exists, even though these days it's primarily in comics (30 days of Night, American Vampire, etc) and some fiction rather than on screen.

Yeah, the silent era Nosferatu style of vampire just doesn't have the sex appeal of ol' Dracula. No wonder he lost out in the market of romantic fiction. I think that were I ever to run a vampire focused setting (at best an unlikely event), I'd have all the vampires look like Nosferatu, but with the power to fool certain suggestible minds into thinking they look (smell and feel) like Lestat and his kin.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913280It is.  I learned the concept in school as "The Byronic Vampire" pointing mainly to Polidori's seminal effect on the genesis of the Romantic Vampire (Romantic as in Romantic Authors), his vampire essentially being inspired by and criticism of Lord Byron.

The Romantic, ie. sexual vampire, has pretty much come to be by far the dominant version, starting with Dracula, becoming even more dominant recently thanks primarily to Anne Rice, not Hollywood.  But the Monstrous Vampire still exists, even though these days it's primarily in comics (30 days of Night, American Vampire, etc) and some fiction rather than on screen.

The vampires in The Strain are pretty monstrous...

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913241I'm in a thread where someone said we needed to "maximize the agency" of FICTIONAL F*ING CHARACTERS.

Fictional characters have NO AGENCY because they don't exist. Someone else—author, player, GM—makes ALL of the decisions as to what they are depicted as thinking, feeling, doing, wearing, appearing as, and so forth ON THEIR BEHALF. THEY HAVE NO EXISTENCE OUTSIDE OF SOMEONE ELSE'S DECISIONS, and thus no agency.

This is utterly true, and anyone who thinks differently is functionally insane.

Technically right, but not really right. When I talk about agency, I'm talking about agency within the fictional setting. Does the call girl drop her panties the second a PC flashes cash, or within the fictional setting, does she have a "choice" (die roll based on persuasion, quest you must meet, reputation within the area). This basic set up has a huge impact on how the PCs experience the game and the message of the game. It's what separates a depressing red light district full of desperate people from a vibrant space brothel ripe for comedic adventures. Or, let's go even more basic. Say you are in a video game with a relationship system. Compare a game which has the person fall in love with you instantly (thank you for saving me brave, sexy, stranger), to a game where you have to act a certain way, choose certain story paths, ect (thank you for helping me out with that personal quest and respecting my wishes to fight the main boss alone, instead of grabbing the loot instead). By forcing the player character to make choices based on the preferences of a fictional character, you are giving "agency" to a fictional character in the sense that they are not there to be the PC's slave. They have "their" own goals and motivations, likes and dislikes. It's basic fiction writing 101.Vampire the Masquerade plays a ton with NPC and PC agency. When the coterie starts out, they are basically the bitch of every other vampire in town. Most NPCs as well are bound to someone else and obeying their orders. Compared to the free roaming adventurers of DnD, it's a deliberate design choice with immense impact on the feel of the game.

Agency of NPCs and PCs is a basic part of game design and has a large impact on how the player character interacts with the world and game. It's why railroad adventures where all the PCs do is watch the NPC signature characters do everything are so hated, or when an NPC isn't statted and just slaughters the party.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;913241I'm in a thread where someone said we needed to "maximize the agency" of FICTIONAL F*ING CHARACTERS.

Fictional characters have NO AGENCY because they don't exist. Someone else—author, player, GM—makes ALL of the decisions as to what they are depicted as thinking, feeling, doing, wearing, appearing as, and so forth ON THEIR BEHALF. THEY HAVE NO EXISTENCE OUTSIDE OF SOMEONE ELSE'S DECISIONS, and thus no agency.

This is utterly true, and anyone who thinks differently is functionally insane.

[Corporal Hicks]Ease down Ripley, ease down.[/Corporal Hicks]

Of course all choices are made BY the players, but the whole concept of roleplaying, of playing pretend, of empathy, of imagination in general is the ability to consider and adopt another's point of view.

Let's say I'm playing a character kind of like Conan and I'm in a situation somewhat like Queen of the Black Coast.  The character in that situation wouldn't want to endanger the love of his life, and if he knew his actions were going to likely result in her death, he wouldn't choose that path unless there were no other way.  If I am playing AS the character, that's how I play.  

If, however, I remove myself from the point of view of the character, then I might decide that while my character really loves this woman, I don't want to spend the rest of this character's gaming career as a pirate, so maybe if she went away, not only would that be great for my character's goal of being a king by his own hand, but then the loss would make for some epic roleplaying....and so your character loses the love of his life.

That's not roleplaying, that's roleplaying-->storytelling-->roleplaying.  The live flesh and blood human person retains the Agency, but they exercise that Agency either as the character or as themselves.  The decision is AS the character, or is ABOUT or FOR the character.

That's what's meant by Character Agency.

But, you should try talking to an author sometime about whether their characters have a life and mind of their own.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913279Nearly every sexually active anime character looks like a teen if not adolescent is what I meant by "generally pedophilic", it is an art form that draws heavily on sexual attraction to the young.  You want to argue that a 14 year old who is biologically capable of reproduction isn't a child and so that isn't pedophilia, ok, fair enough, there's a lot of anime that would land inside adolescence yet outside prepubescence as far as characters go.  Of course then there's Magical Girl and the SchoolGirl fetish...

If you are correct that Hentai simply means "porn" then I'm sure there must be Hentai somewhere that doesn't include monsters or some form of intercourse that begins with forced sex and leads to orgasm because the woman really wants it despite earlier protests.  There should be "romance Hentai" or some such, and perhaps there is.  It doesn't come up when you google Hentai though, the other stuff does, hence "generally misogynistic".  Nowhere did I say Japan was a rape culture or even claim that the idea of a rape culture even exists.

If you want to flag me as ignorant of all the various subtropes, cultures and kinks of "Hentai", you have my permission to do so.

To chime in on this, the sexualization of younger and younger characters is a relatively recent thing in Japan, and has grown as the population ages. When youth is at such a premium, it becomes more and more fetishized. Compare this to the traditionally attractive archetype of the Japanese woman, the yamato nadeshiko, who is usually in her 20's, brave, hard working, cultured, independent and dedicated to the mission of her family.

Quote from: Xanther;913287The vampires in The Strain are pretty monstrous...

The Strain is a novel trilogy adaptation, like the 30 Days of Night movie is a comic adaptation.  Hollywood probably isn't going to lead with a monstrous vampire of it's own volition, it has no built in hook like sex vampires do - unless it's an adaptation from some other media.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913295The Strain is a novel trilogy adaptation, like the 30 Days of Night movie is a comic adaptation.  Hollywood probably isn't going to lead with a monstrous vampire of it's own volition, it has no built in hook like sex vampires do - unless it's an adaptation from some other media.

Adaption is the thing these days in Hollywood, which really isn't such a bad thing.

Just saying The Strain has the monstrous vampire thing on the little screen.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;913294To chime in on this, the sexualization of younger and younger characters is a relatively recent thing in Japan, and has grown as the population ages.

I don't know what you mean by "relatively recent." What's your point of comparison?

• The early 11th C Tale of Genji?
• The Shogunate period and the interaction with Europe during the age of exporation in the 16th and early 17th centuries?
• The opening of Japan in the mid 19th century?
• The first animes made in Japan circa 1910 or so?
• Japan pre-WWII e.g. 1920s and 1930s?
• Japan post-WWII when the birth rate started to drop rather precipitously in the 1950s as did the death rate?
• The 1960s with Astroboy, Marine Boy, or Kimba the White Lion when the birth rate stabilized for a while?
• The 1970s with Space Battleship Yamato, Mobile Suit Gundam, Lupin III: The Castle of Cagliostro, or Rose of Versaille when the birth rate began dropping again?
• The 1980s with Vampire Hunter D, Bubblegum Crisis, or Ghost in the Shell (birth rate continues to drop and death rate begins to rise)?
• The after the 1980s (birth rate still dropping; death rate still rising)?
• Or the mid 2000s when the birth rate actually dropped below the death rate driving the current negative population growth rate?

I doubt there are many, if any posters, whose personal memory goes back much before the 1960s. And if it does, it probably doesn't include much Japanese culture. So the meaning of the phrase relatively recently is itself highly relative.