Quote from: FaerieGodfather;911763It's exactly that. It's nothing more than unprincipled tribalist bullshit.

I'm ok with that. If the SJW cunts want to censor everyone they don't like, they should expect to receive the same treatment.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;912901I did not know about Alpha Blue exclusively using whores as a term. What the fuck? Call girls, hookers, joy girls, courtesans, streetwalkers, there are a metric fuckton of terms that could have been used, and a few that actually give some form of agency or power to the women in question. But fuck that, lets teach those dumb bitches a lesson and just use quite possibly the worst term available instead.

And all those names?  Equally derogatory.  Each and everyone one of them means the same thing, in the same degrading way.  So it doesn't matter if you use whore, strumpet, doxy, prostitute, call girls, 'escorts', or whatever they are all insulting and degrading terms.  Why?  Because selling yourself for sex, especially if your female, is bad.  Doesn't matter the reason, the made up societal bullshit, or whatever justification, it is considered bad.

It's a no-win situation.  So why bother prettying it up and be fucking honest with yourself about it?

Quote from: Crabbyapples;913017What? Can you explain this bit? I've played Dresden Files and found it to be a fine game, but what's the deal with child pornography?

In the LA section, there's a demon run ring of child pornography.  However the demon running it is using the children's misery to feed an even greater demon to keep it sedate and 'happy', that if awoken will destroy the world.  Full stop.  No way out  End of discussion.  There are no clues given as to how to prevent the end.  In fact, it's implied that the GM make it unpreventable by the PC's for...  Something.  Hubris?  To crush your players' dreams of being heroes?  I don't know.

Thing is, it 'glorified' child porn, by making it a more than necessary evil, you (the players, not any one person on this forum) MUST support it, and personally, it's one of the few things I find offensive.

RPGs are about making shit up.  If you're OK with having heavy situations like rape and child porn among other degrading crimes (and as someone who runs a Mutants and Masterminds Iron Age campaign, I'm a firm believer that people can -not always and not everyone, but there are enough- do really nasty shit for profit, or just their jollies) but one thing I always do in my games, simply because you can't always stop it happening in real life, is let the PC's stop it.  As violently as they like.  I like to run empowerment fantasies, letting people do shit they can't in real life for various reasons.

But the Paranet Papers LA scene bothers me no end, because I don't like the idea of having any sort of sexually exploitative crime unstoppable because 'Reasons'.


Sorry, went on a rant there.  But that is where I stand on this,

Oh, and I from what I heard, and Nexus has echoed what people have told me, I will put Exalted's 2e Infernals book on the list of offensive shit that if I were to pick on.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;913037But the Paranet Papers LA scene bothers me no end, because I don't like the idea of having any sort of sexually exploitative crime unstoppable because 'Reasons'.

At the same time, saying that a hopeless and ugly situation in a serious game is morally equivalent to the trivial way something like Tournament of Rapists treats sexual assault is ridiculous bullshit. People are really stretching to find ways to call SJW game publishers "hypocrites".

Quote from: Christopher Brady;913035And all those names?  Equally derogatory.  Each and everyone one of them means the same thing, in the same degrading way.  So it doesn't matter if you use whore, strumpet, doxy, prostitute, call girls, 'escorts', or whatever they are all insulting and degrading terms.  Why?  Because selling yourself for sex, especially if your female, is bad.  Doesn't matter the reason, the made up societal bullshit, or whatever justification, it is considered bad.

It's a no-win situation.  So why bother prettying it up and be fucking honest with yourself about it?

Because there are situations where selling sex has been a positive. There are women today who have been able to find empowerment through selling sex. The call girls involved in the DC Madam scandal, for example. They were making tons of money choosing to sleep with some of the most powerful men on the planet. Or those who advertise through Craigs list and vet their customers. I used Inara from Firefly as a fantastic fictional example of this. She is a powerful, wealthy, cultured woman who wields enormous influence through her position. When she says "release this ship from lockdown", people listen. She is proud of her job and what she does. You can do prostitution in a sex positive way. It involves agency, choice and respect. Whore strips away all of this, while courtesan or call girl reckons back to an element of class and power. Are the women forced to take a client by a pimp, or do they have some choice as to say yes or not? Are they the lowest of the low, or are they seen as respectable members of society? This is why I mentioned the sex comedy elements of facing the obstacles between the protagonist and getting laid. If you are going to to make a comedic sex game, part of the comedy should be the PCs challenges in proving themselves to the professionals.

Quote from: Spike;912974Is the outrage brigade planning to ever put out a book... like some form of thesarus... that will explain to those of us NOT in the illuminatii which words are worse than others?   When did whore become "the worst term available"?   Mind you, I'm not exactly disagreeing with this assessment, but I'm betting I could think of quite a few words that the Outrage Brigade might think are just as bad, if not worse, than Whore. Bitch... that's a popular one to complain about. Is it better or worse than Whore? What's the hierarchy here.

Of course, since I pride myself on my wordsmithy (I know...I know...), I can imagine getting much worse than Whore.  Just off the top of my head? Fuckmeat. Cocksleeve. Hmm, how about fuckslot? That one is pretty damned low. I'm not sure I can... top? Bottom? that one without getting obscure, esoteric or otherwise outre.

Those are all terms which in and of themselves carry with them more insult. Same thing with the terms nigger or faggot. You could probably develop more creatively and basely insulting terms. But what makes those terms so horrible is the power and legacy they bring with them. It's not just the insult value of the word, it's the intense dehumanization that has been attached to them by societies use. I doubt a woman has been called a fuckslot before, and they'd still be pissed if it happened, but whore would probably hit harder thanks to the environment in which she has grown up.

As a counterpoint, take bitch. Bitch can be reclaimed. For example, Ivelisse in Lucha Underground calls herself the baddest bitch in the room. And she backs it up, by kicking the shit out of everyone, making it a term of power. That doesn't mean calling a woman a bitch out of context wouldn't be a complete asshole move. But a motorcycle riding mma fighter, for example, might embrace the term "bad bitch" and turn it into a compliment from people who know her well. But whore, I've yet to see people be able to defang whore, or cunt.

As for thesaurus, I can't help you there. Honestly, the basic rule is just read how the word is being used by the people who it would ostensibly apply to. A slur is a slur out of context, and even within context with close friends you're dancing on a high wire rope. But if no one is turning a word around, then that's a major "do not touch" signal.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;913040At the same time, saying that a hopeless and ugly situation in a serious game is morally equivalent to the trivial way something like Tournament of Rapists treats sexual assault is ridiculous bullshit. People are really stretching to find ways to call SJW game publishers "hypocrites".

This is where I smack you upside the head with a thing called context.  In Tournament of Rapists you play as people going undercover to END the tournament forever.  A tournament of consenting adults that agreed to this horrible shit.  In other words this is stoppable and the wrong can be righted.

The Papers game force children to be preyed on.  If the heroes try to stop it the world dies and no one will save any one.  Which creates a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.  Which by the way those scenarios suck ass.  Point is you have to let this slide, or else you allow something worse to happen so it forces the players to be helpless.

One you can stop forever and the other your helpless as you watch in horror.  So very different games going on.  Papers is more offensive than Tournament of Rapists mainly because Papers stripped your ability to do any thing about it.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;913040At the same time, saying that a hopeless and ugly situation in a serious game is morally equivalent to the trivial way something like Tournament of Rapists treats sexual assault is ridiculous bullshit. People are really stretching to find ways to call SJW game publishers "hypocrites".

Oh joy. Here we go again.

Tournament of Rapists... isnt. Pretty much all the participants are there of their own volition and are aware of the nature of the thing. All but maybee one of the opponents are monsters of some sort ranging from ghosts to mutants to demons. Yadda-yadda like anyone ever listens.

Quote from: Snowman0147;913056This is where I smack you upside the head with a thing called context.  In Tournament of Rapists you play as people going undercover to END the tournament forever.  A tournament of consenting adults that agreed to this horrible shit.  In other words this is stoppable and the wrong can be righted.

It's cute that you think that makes playing sexual assault for comedy better than playing it for horror. Adorable, really.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;913064It's cute that you think that makes playing sexual assault for comedy better than playing it for horror. Adorable, really.

It is not cute.  Quite horrible actually, but it proves my point that you never argued against.  That is one horrible thing is done by consent and can be stop.  The other is done by force and while you can stop it you end up doing something even worse.  So much so that there is no point in stopping the horrible wrong in the first place.  This creates a feeling of helplessness which is offensive because you can't do any thing about it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;913080It is not cute.  Quite horrible actually, but it proves my point that you never argued against.  That is one horrible thing is done by consent and can be stop.  The other is done by force and while you can stop it you end up doing something even worse.  So much so that there is no point in stopping the horrible wrong in the first place.  This creates a feeling of helplessness which is offensive because you can't do any thing about it.

And you're still ignoring that the helplessness is part of a horror scenario while the game with the "consensual rapes" is a fucking comedy. Stop being obtuse.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;913082And you're still ignoring that the helplessness is part of a horror scenario while the game with the "consensual rapes" is a fucking comedy. Stop being obtuse.

Dresden Files is not what I call a horror setting.  Urban Fantasy sure, but not horror.

Edit:  Also to add this.  Since when was Black Tokyo considered to be a comedy game?

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;913064It's cute that you think that makes playing sexual assault for comedy better than playing it for horror. Adorable, really.

What game are you asserting makes playing sexual assault comedic?

• Alpha Blue - Are the Satisfiers on the Alpha Blue Stations slaves?  Is rape on the menu there?  I don't know, never seen it.
• Black Tokyo - It's playing the setting as horror anime.  The specific Tournament of Rapists is a Big Bad Guy Organization the PCs are supposed to *stop*.  Think Tekken with Tentacles.  Do you think Black Tokyo is a comedy game?  Legend of the Overfiend wasn't very funny, nor was it supposed to be.  At least I hope not.
• Paranet Papers - Allowing the Child Porn Ring to continue is supposed to be horrific.  Frankly, if the Paranet Papers were a supplement for CthulhuTech instead of for a Fate product released by Evil Hat, there would already be a petition on change.org.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913086What game are you asserting makes playing sexual assault comedic?

Quote from: CRKrueger;913086Alpha Blue - Are the Satisfiers on the Alpha Blue Stations slaves?  Is rape on the menu there?  I don't know, never seen it.

I'm not arguing about Alpha Blue, since I don't know much about it beyond Pundit's review. I have no objections to it, but it's not my cup of tea. It wasn't my intent to derail the argument, but merely to comment that playing "tit for tat" in this fashion is hypocritical, ridiculous, and morally wrong.

For the record, I think the people trying to censor games that feature rape, even in a juvenile fashion, are wrong. I think the people making juvenile shock-comedy games that trivialize rape and make fun of survivors are more wrong. (But still don't support censoring them.) I think the people trying to censor any game with adult themes produced by people they consider "social justice warriors", as a form of retaliation for their efforts to censor offensive games, to be extremely fucking wrong. My argument isn't for or against any specific group of people, it's against bad behavior and bad arguments on both sides.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913086Black Tokyo - It's playing the setting as horror anime.  The specific Tournament of Rapists is a Big Bad Guy Organization the PCs are supposed to *stop*.  Think Tekken with Tentacles.  Do you think Black Tokyo is a comedy game?

I think the inclusion of feats like "Triggered" indicates that the authors are making fun of sexual assault and sexual assault survivors, yes. And since I don't believe anyone is actually half as stupid as they're pretending to be here, I think you are generally aware of the fact that this was the intent as well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;913086Paranet Papers - Allowing the Child Porn Ring to continue is supposed to be horrific.  Frankly, if the Paranet Papers were a supplement for CthulhuTech instead of for a Fate product released by Evil Hat, there would already be a petition on change.org.

And maybe if that's what were happening here, you'd have a point about the hypocrisy of the people outraged by "offensive" content in gaming.

You do know that triggered is a real thing used by the military right?  I mean how do you know the feat isn't using that?

Quote from: Snowman0147;913092You do know that triggered is a real thing used by the military right?  I mean how do you know the feat isn't using that?

I have a superpower. It's called "common fucking sense".