Quote from: Doom;912458Agreed, under the assumption they don't have any spells, Wizards are pretty bad.

The goalposts you move keep running over your strawmen. I don't claim that Wizards are bad; only that the balance for the awesomeness generated by burning lots of spell slots is ... running out of spell slots. Duh.

And that happens a lot sooner if you imagine that they're burning several spells a round, because we also established that their offense is nothing special if they don't use spell slots to power it, and AC15 and lower hit points is nothing special for defense, if they're not using the Shield spell. That ninth level Wizard has, what, 14 spell slots and already used one for Mage Armor, so 7 rounds of combat if they're getting attacked a lot, or they can accept having a lower AC and then they're not so great on defense, or resort to cantrips and then they're not so great on offense. Arcane Recovery gives that Wizard 4 spell levels back, so they'll be good for a Mage Armor and a Shield and maybe a 2nd level spell after that, a one-time recovery before a long rest.

QuoteRealistically, of course, this doesn't happen. The simple fact that Shield is only used when needed, means the wizard could easily be in half a dozen rounds of melee combat before running out of first level spell slots....and then he can just use higher level spell slots.

And, of course, combats don't usually last that long. And, of course, wizards don't usually put themselves into melee for that many rounds. And, of course, the wizard will usually use his spells to help himself in combat. And, of course, the rest of the party will usually help out even such an incompetent wizard. And, of course, "after 8 hours he's squishy" is misleading, since a single short rest is usually enough for a wizard to get some spell slots back. And, of course, there are few scenarios where the adventurers have more than 8 consecutive hours of combat.

There are numerous scenarios where more than 8 hours is spent traveling through territory where it's not easy to take a long rest, with a succession of battles, in which characters are not given a choice about being in melee. The early part of Out of the Abyss comes to mind. You don't have to have 8 hours of combat; you can burn through all of that Wizard's spell slots by your stated strategy in less than a minute, and then have a tough trek to safe places where you can rest. The 8 hours is when the Mage Armor expires, whether you fight or not.

QuoteBut without all these common scenarios, in a white room, under the assumption of the wizard having no spells and especially if he can't move in addition, then, yeah, I agree...he's pretty sucky on defense.

So I looked at notes from the last adventure we played, last night; 12 opponents against 5 PCs in the last fight, and it lasted 7 rounds. The earlier fight lasted only 5 rounds, but the PCs were outnumbered by even more (but mostly weaker and slower) opponents and the casters chewed up a few spells there. No Wizard in the party, so I don't know how many Shield spells would have been cast; the two Rogues were doing plenty of Uncanny Dodges in the latter fight. Everyone got attacked almost every round in the latter fight, even the Rogue who hid pretty far away. Using Cunning Action to Disengage and retain mobility did not do much for either Rogue in avoiding attacks; Wizards are less mobile than that, unless they use all their spell slots and actions on moving and do no actual attacking, and there's still ranged attacks. A lot of combat but not a particularly challenging adventure; we could have run away before the second fight if the first had gone worse.

I get that you are heavily invested in the idea of caster supremacy, but I'm really beginning to wonder how much you actually play.

In all my thirty years of running D&D (well, OK, as I've played many other games, it's closer to 20 ish?) I've never had a Wizard ever run out of spells. Except at Level 1.  Too much worry about losing the Magic Go Juice, not from the Magic User, but by the rest of the party.

I assume you guys are talking about 3e or later, not 1e or 0e, like the rest of the people in the thread? Because in those games, M-Us don't normally run out of spells because casting during combat is a bad idea. A worse idea than using a bow in combat, because if the spell is interrupted, you lose it, generally.

The typical M-U in combat has a chance of casting one ranged spell or maybe throwing up a defensive spell before pulling out a dagger. Magic items can change this, but even there, you aren't typically going to see someone casting a new spell effect every round. That's something that creatures with innate magic effects do, which is what makes things like basilisks or beholders scary.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;912473In all my thirty years of running D&D (well, OK, as I've played many other games, it's closer to 20 ish?) I've never had a Wizard ever run out of spells. Except at Level 1.  Too much worry about losing the Magic Go Juice, not from the Magic User, but by the rest of the party.

Exactly. In some weird white room, Omega and Raw say these things, but...it's not a white room you actually get to see. In actual play, paralyzed wizards with no spells engaging in 9 hour combats with no help from the other players is rather rare, despite what these guys say.

Now off to another Omega-style train wreck.

>>Lets see. Level 9 Wizard has 14 spells, (not counting cantrips.) That is. After 14 rounds the Wizard is down to just cantrips and guess what.<<

OUCH! For a guy that always claims to play this game nearly 24/7, you don't seem to know how wizards play. It's quite possible to cast cantrips even when you have other spells. In fact, wizards in my campaign do that all the time. It's more like 30 rounds of combat before the wizard is down to nothing but cantrips, because more often than not, wizards use cantrips than spells. For example, a Fireball might start the combat, then the wizard uses cantrips to finish off the wounded monsters.

Again, I'm hoping some actual players can chime in with something like "yeah, this guy is full of crap, my wizard often casts a cantrip during combat."

>>Shield only lasts one round. Useful if you are being ganged up on. But can end up wasted if no one attacks you the round duration its up. <<

Ouch, again. For a guy that that claims to play wizards so much, you really don't understand this basic spell, so useful that every class with access to it will take it.

It's not possible for Shield to be "wasted" as it's a Reaction. If you get hit, you can use Shield to cancel the hit. You are guaranteed to get use out of Shield, if you cast it. You might well get extra use if you get attacked multiple times during the round but...it really is just that awesome. It's what makes Shield so great--you only get the big bonus if you want it.


>>And you cant blow higher slots to cast it so you only get... drumroll please... Yep... 4 of those oh so super powerful Shield. uh-huh. Yeah man Im invincible!<<

Ouch, yet again. Even for you, this post is a train wreck. Page 201 of the PHB sure seems to indicate you can cast Shield using a higher level spell slot.

At this point, I guess I should go into the mathematics here. Outside of edge cases, any attack on the Wizard has a 25% chance of being negated by Shield. This doesn't mean the Wizard will only use a shield every 4 rounds, however, as he'll typically use Shield when he's ganged up on (i.e., at least 2 attacks against him). So, if he didn't know the rules like Omega and only used his level 1 spell slots (along with all the other white room assumptions made earlier), he still will take around 6 rounds (assuming 4 level 1 slots, one used for Mage Armor) before running out of slots.

That's 6 rounds of VULNERABILITY, however, not 6 rounds of combat. In actual play, Wizards tend not to put themselves right into the middle of combat, and the other party members will often do what they can to help the wizard.

Again, this is the problem: the wizard has to be extremely vulnerable for a long period of time before there's any actual vulnerability...he gets built-in defenses so that there's no real vulnerability here.

And, of course, if he takes a short rest, he'll have an excellent chance of getting at least one of those slots back. But only if he wants it.


There's no "curb stomping with the facts", just more idiocy of ever increasing purity.

No, Shield doesn't make the Wizard invincible. It's just this weird set up where infinite cantrips means the wizard may as well use his first level spells for utility, combined with "the combo" of mage armor and shield also giving the wizard a higher AC than other characters.

But only if he wants it.

Quote from: Omega;912463Lets see. Level 9  Wizard has 14 spells, (not counting cantrips.) That is. After 14 rounds the Wizard is down to just cantrips and guess what. Those work pretty much like a fighters sword.

This is a non-issue in actual play. It happens only rarely. In two campaigns of 5e, dozens of campaigns with AD&D 1st and OD&D, and numerous one-shots. There only been a handful of times where the wizard ran out of spells. For the most part players are pretty smart at managing their resources and will break off when needed to to replenish.

The few time that it occurred is because the party got itself into a running battle. Either something went badly and they have the fight their way back to safety, or they just wind up in a extended battle where attrition is a major factor.

For example in one 5e session, one player decides he had enough of an "evil" sheriff and shoots hims. This leads to a multi-session battle sequence where a castle is sacked and the players wind up leading a revolution.

http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2015/03/majestic-wilderlands-look-squirrel.html
http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2015/03/reflections-on-majestic-beat-down.html
http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2015/03/majestic-wilderlands-do-you-hear-people.html
http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2015/03/majestic-wilderlands.html
http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2015/04/majestic-wilderlands-were-all-only-down.html

It was an extraordinary situation that led to people running out of well.. just about everything.

Quote from: estar;912525This is a non-issue in actual play. It happens only rarely.

You missed the part where I point out using longer duration defensive spells instead.

A single Cloud of X lasts up to 10 rounds. IE: about 1 battle.

Quote from: Doom;912515Exactly. In some weird white room, Omega and Raw say these things, but...it's not a white room you actually get to see. In actual play, paralyzed wizards with no spells engaging in 9 hour combats with no help from the other players is rather rare, despite what these guys say.

You totally missed the point. As usual.

Note where I point out using longer duration spells defensively? That is from actual play.

Try again please.

Quote from: Doom;912515Exactly. In some weird white room, Omega and Raw say these things, but...it's not a white room you actually get to see. In actual play, paralyzed wizards with no spells engaging in 9 hour combats with no help from the other players is rather rare, despite what these guys say.

(It's rawma, not Raw.)

I'm describing my actual experience playing, not any white room. You, in contrast, seem to be making a lot of assumptions about how the course of every D&D game has to go.

Whether Wizards run out of spell slots because they cast them all or whether they stop using them because they're saving them for later doesn't really matter; they stop being as great as you describe them if they're not using the spell slots. If you're going to claim they're great because of spell slots they use, then ... they have to use up the spell slots, either until they decide not to be great to save spell slots or the decision is made for them by running out.

Quotecombined with "the combo" of mage armor and shield also giving the wizard a higher AC than other characters.

You really have nobody in plate armor and a shield, let alone with +1AC from fighting style or with a magic shield? I guess maybe I was right about the lack of playing experience.

But I see you're the guy who couldn't read the scale on maps in Rise of Tiamat. So maybe it's not lack of playing experience causing comprehension difficulties.

Quote from: rawma;912601(It's rawma, not Raw.)



You really have nobody in plate armor and a shield, let alone with +1AC from fighting style or with a magic shield? I guess maybe I was right about the lack of playing experience.

Wow, you're including magic shields for other characters now to make your point? You don't even  know there are magic items to increase a wizard's armor class. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH.

Shush already, you're embarrassing yourself to much.

Gee whiz, I missed a line in gothic script on a map page, and you're still in tears over it. Is THAT what all your butthurt is about? Well, at least now we know. Mea culpa already, get over it.

Geez.

Quote from: Doom;912603Wow, you're including magic shields for other characters now to make your point? You don't even  know there are magic items to increase a wizard's armor class.

None of them appear to be on the "Uncommon" magic item list, though. And, again, actual playing experience; in more than two years, I've only seen one such item (an Ioun Stone) but many more armor or shield +1 or better. But plate armor, shield and fighting style give AC21 without any magic items, so you're as mistaken as you were misreading maps in Rise of Tiamat. And that AC is all the time, without using any spell slots or worrying about having reaction available.

>>you're as mistaken as you were misreading maps in Rise of Tiamat.<<

Yes, I didn't see a line of gothic font on a map. My eyes aren't so good anymore, but feel free to harp on this irrelevancy. I still maintain fireball has a 20' radius, I still maintain most parties do not assume a marching formation that exceeds the area effect of a fireball. We can agree to disagree on this, though.

So, um, are you sure plate armor costs 0 gp? I maintain that in most campaigns it costs significantly more than what a character starts the game with; I also maintain that wizards can get first level spells at very low level.

>>None of them appear to be on the "Uncommon" magic item list, though<<

Also, Cloak of Protection is uncommon, so you're wrong, yet again. Give it up, already.

Quote from: Doom;912623>>you're as mistaken as you were misreading maps in Rise of Tiamat.<<

Yes, I didn't see a line of gothic font on a map. My eyes aren't so good anymore, but feel free to harp on this irrelevancy.

It's pretty big type on three of three (fairly uncluttered) maps you mentioned, and absolutely crucial to running that portion of the adventure, and completely negated your point. And we know you didn't actually play it or you should have noticed that 5 foot wide spaces are too narrow for an adult white dragon's lair (they're huge creatures).

QuoteSo, um, are you sure plate armor costs 0 gp? I maintain that in most campaigns it costs significantly more than what a character starts the game with; I also maintain that wizards can get first level spells at very low level.

Adventure League is notoriously stingy with monetary treasure (wandering monsters never have any), and yet it hasn't been hard to get 1500GP by 6th level or so (that is, my characters have managed it consistently, although more for possible need for spellcasting services than buying plate armor). Splint is one AC less and only costs 200GP (still not starting equipment, but not hard to acquire by second level) and with the Defense fighting style still makes your statement wrong.

Your strategy of using Shield and Mage Armor? Exhausts all spell slots for a first level Wizard after the first attack on the Wizard, with no effect except to protect the Wizard. And you expect the other party members to help such a freeloader?
:confused:

QuoteAlso, Cloak of Protection is uncommon, so you're wrong, yet again. Give it up, already.

Yes, I missed that one on a quick read-through. Usable by all character classes, requires attunement. +1 shield doesn't require attunement, and it comes up on one of the random tables 3 times out of 100, with the cloak coming up only 2 of 100 on the same table. So it is less common than +1 shield. But I demonstrated that you were wrong with no magic items at all, so this actually is irrelevant.

Fighter: Plate + Shield = AC 20
Wizard: Mage Armor + DEX 20 bonus = AC 18. IF you rolled an 18 and took an elf or halfling for example. (Not counting Shield as its a 1 round effect.)
Monk & Barbarian: Unarmored AC of max 19  (Wood Elf and Halfling respectively with absurdly lucky rolls of two 18s for stats.) 20 at level 4.
)
The fighter can potentially hit around AC 26, possibly as high as 29 or more with magic items. The wizard? Not so high. Though still impressive. Chances of either happening are not great. But it is possible to some degree.

All of which is totally pointless because the likelyhood of it happening for the non-Fighters are either so low, it requires possibly diverting stats from your primary, or isnt attainable till late in the game where you are, oh I dont know, SUPPOSED TO BE POWERFUL? At the low levels sure you might be able to hit a good AC on a lucky chargen day. But thats true of any game where you roll random stats. And even in 5e AC isnt the be-all end-all game breaker.

Quote.And we know you didn't actually play it or you should have noticed that 5 foot wide spaces are too narrow for an adult white dragon's lair (they're huge creatures).

Holy shit, you're STILL butthurt over that? For those that don't remember, my issue was the CR 3 wizard can cast two fireballs, dealing out more damage than a typical level 3 character can possibly take...and there's basically no reliable way the party can stop it. We spend ten pages or so, and nothing worked. And you're STILL butthurt over this, to the point that you think a dungeon for level 9ish characters somehow negates that thesis. Damn. Just...damn.

I also get to call you  out as a liar, you nutless bastard, as I did not say the squares were 5'. So at least show a little manhood and admit, flat out, you were wrong. You won't do that, of course.

But I still will call you a liar and will do so forever afterward if you don't simply acknowledge an error here on your part at the very least. You won't, of course, being a nutless bastard.

Quote from: rawma;912630It's pretty big type on three of three (fairly uncluttered) maps you mentioned, and absolutely crucial to running that portion of the adventure, and completely negated your point.

Cloak of Protection is in very clear type, alphabetically listed, been in D&D for ages. I could pick about your shrill defense of your error (attunement, really?), but no point.

You missing it negates your point every bit as someone with poor eyesight missing a line of text in an unusual place on a map. You actually bullying someone for having poor eyesight for what, a year, is truly, truly low.

Using your logic, you've just admitted you have no idea how to play the game, so at this point you're just trolling some more, right? This is idiocy of course, but that's the result if we assume you're intellectually honest.

Look, I'm trying to match you for stupid jackassery here. Apologies if I'm not even close.

Seriously. You're that guy who buys tickets to the Special Olympics just so you can sit in the stands and call all the kids retards.

QuoteYour strategy of using Shield and Mage Armor? Exhausts all spell slots for a first level Wizard after the first attack on the Wizard, with no effect except to protect the Wizard. And you expect the other party members to help such a freeloader?
:confused:

How do you not even know that "level 1" is a fairly brief period for a character, and that cantrips are fine against very low level monsters? I'm starting to wonder just how much you're faking it here.

Anyway, I've already addressed this in detail there's no reason to go over it all again. You missed it. Again. Go back and read...or not. The only reason I continue to engage with you is to cut into the time you go down to the pediatric burn unit and point at all the "ugly" children and smugly laugh.

Speaking of intellectual honesty, when will you be flinging poo at Omega for not even knowing about using Shield as a higher spell slot? If it helps, picture him as physically smaller and weaker than you, wearing thick glasses. Got nothing? Seriously? I predict as much.

The only question is how long until the idiot brigade finally stops shitting the thread. I'm out, you're a liar...will the Feckless Wonder stop? I doubt it.

EDIT: I do apologize for the insults here, especially "nutless"; your genitals, much like your posts, are irrelevant. However, "liar" is objectively demonstrated by you, as is "intellectually dishonest" and "butthurt." These are simply statements of your demonstrated poor character. If you'd like, I'd be happy to suggest links and books to help you out.

You three should get a room.  Or at least say something instead of back and forth arguing about what may or may not have been said 5 pages ago.  When you spend more sentences on the personal attack, then you do on your actual argument, time to go.