Quote from: Crüesader;905636TBH I have to admit there are very few gaming systems I've played that made me dislike the system.  Most of the time, it's the crowd that flocks to it (See: Vampire, Star Wars).

Quote from: daniel_ream;905668You're trying to argue price theory to gamers.  Good luck with that, man.

This is the same reason the only video games I've ever paid full price on release day for are the Borderlands series.  I'm sending the "more of this, please" signal.  I've also given John Wick a couple hundred dollars to convince him to keep producing stuff because he was going to quit the industry due to massive piracy of his $5 games.

All the idiots ranting about how the OGL wasn't a problem - the OGL did exactly what it was intended to do, which was keep the publisher of D&D from being able to control it.  That's great for fans.  It sucks if selling D&D is what you need to keep the lights on and feed your family.

Like it or not, reselling used games, piracy, and the insistence on "free culture" is why things like Netflix, PSNow and Steam exist: they allow the publisher to control the content.

Wrong go open up a copy of any video game that actually has a manual flip to the back and read your leasing agreement!!!
You will learn that selling a used copy IS NOT PIRACY!!!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?

I will take you at face value, and assume that you are sincere. The answer to your question is the same one I gave originally -- because you want a hard copy. I'll also add, "because you're not comfortable with stealing or running a scam in order to get it".

You seem to be of the opinion that desiring a hard copy of something automatically means that you should feel obligated to reward the original producer of that item and help ensure that they stay in business. For some reason, you also seem to feel that if you don't want a hard copy, that obligation is lessened (the latter may not actually be the case, because it seems you frequently say things that you don't intend to mean what you're saying).

If someone has a copy of something that I want, at a price I'm happy to pay, they are generally going to be exactly the right person to throw my money at, unless they're also engaged in some nefarious behaviour other than selling a second-hand item.

Now, if your argument was, "If you want to support Paizo and keep them in business, you should buy new," you'd have an excellent point. The problem is that you're asserting that anyone who decides that they want any given Paizo product should immediately feel an obligation to give a shit about Paizo beyond their current desire for that particular product.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Here's something else a lot of people don't seem to get:  No one sees the actual sales of the product, they extrapolate by the amount of money being reported/acquired.  And if something is being sold really well, but only when it's being bought used, the creator will look at the fact that they're not getting any money and believe that the product is not what people want after all.  It's what happened to the Darksider video game series, it did reasonably well as a used product, but no one (hyperbolic) bought it new.  So THQ (who is not going to see Gamestop's numbers) believed that the game wasn't good enough and shut down the studio that made it, shortly before shutting down their own operations.

Not quite the same.

Most often when an RPG ends up on sale used that means the original buyer didnt like it and got rid of it. So all buying used does is transfer the game to the hands of someone who would have bought it anyhow. About zero loss there. PC/console games though are a different matter. You can play through a PC game to completion where you cannot with an RPG. Or at least by the time you've exhausted the RPG its likely long out of print.

There are though designers who have stated flat out that groups sharing a rulebook are stealing from the designer.

Quote from: Omega;905778There are though designers who have stated flat out that groups sharing a rulebook are stealing from the designer.

Side note: I'd love to see how original these games are, whether they couldn't be traced to good, old "D&D:FR only with a twist and sans a few things we didn't like" mindset.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654And where did I say this?  If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.  As for me, unless there's no other way to obtain it (And the only reason I emphasized that is because no one would pay attention it, or conveniently try and twist my words, yet again...), I will buy the product new, because it supports the creator.

The 'creator' already got more than his 'support' when Big Books Inc. bought fifty copies and sold twenty-five.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

Hold on.  I'm going to stop you right there.  

I don't give a flying fuck about Paizo, WotC, or OPP.  They aren't my friends.  We're not pals.  I'm not trying to make sure they have enough money to eat.

Some guy does this all on his lonesome?  Yeah, I'll do it.  I'll support a good indie product.

Maybe- just MAYBE- the publisher would see guys like me buying things 'new' if the only option wasn't a ~$60.00 hardcover book.  Give me a slimmed-down, less bullshit softcover and we'll talk.  Sell modules the same way.

The product has already been sold.  The person no longer wanted the product, and wanted a little pocket money.  You'll have to forgive me if I'd rather help another gamer out that's helping me out instead of worrying about a major publishing company.  Fuck them and fuck their feelings.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905739Now, if your argument was, "If you want to support Paizo and keep them in business, you should buy new," you'd have an excellent point. The problem is that you're asserting that anyone who decides that they want any given Paizo product should immediately feel an obligation to give a shit about Paizo beyond their current desire for that particular product.

There's also the possibility that the person who sold that used book will use that extra money towards buying a new product from the company. I don't see the zero sum game that some are seeing here.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Then you both need reading comprehension skills because that's what you want to believe I said.  Projecting much?



And where did I say this?  If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.  As for me, unless there's no other way to obtain it (And the only reason I emphasized that is because no one would pay attention it, or conveniently try and twist my words, yet again...), I will buy the product new, because it supports the creator.

The various percentages fluctuate between 10/30% profit for the average retailer.  The rest goes to the publisher/creator (which isn't as much as it looks as they have various costs too.)  However, buying a used product sends 100% the often slightly lower price to the retailer, and 0% to the publisher/creator.

Here's something else a lot of people don't seem to get:  No one sees the actual sales of the product, they extrapolate by the amount of money being reported/acquired.  And if something is being sold really well, but only when it's being bought used, the creator will look at the fact that they're not getting any money and believe that the product is not what people want after all.  It's what happened to the Darksider video game series, it did reasonably well as a used product, but no one (hyperbolic) bought it new.  So THQ (who is not going to see Gamestop's numbers) believed that the game wasn't good enough and shut down the studio that made it, shortly before shutting down their own operations.

So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

I don't owe publishers or developers a damn thing. It's all based on the utility I will obtain from said product. Why buy used? Because of the marginal utility gained. As the marginal value decreases for said product so does my demand for said product.

I don't owe a publisher shit. They owe me. I'm their customer. I pay full price and pre-order all of Kenzer & Companies products because I like their products. Paizo is fully a thrift shop or used book store find because I won't pay full price for it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Then you both need reading comprehension skills because that's what you want to believe I said.  Projecting much?



And where did I say this?  If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.  As for me, unless there's no other way to obtain it (And the only reason I emphasized that is because no one would pay attention it, or conveniently try and twist my words, yet again...), I will buy the product new, because it supports the creator.

The various percentages fluctuate between 10/30% profit for the average retailer.  The rest goes to the publisher/creator (which isn't as much as it looks as they have various costs too.)  However, buying a used product sends 100% the often slightly lower price to the retailer, and 0% to the publisher/creator.

Here's something else a lot of people don't seem to get:  No one sees the actual sales of the product, they extrapolate by the amount of money being reported/acquired.  And if something is being sold really well, but only when it's being bought used, the creator will look at the fact that they're not getting any money and believe that the product is not what people want after all.  It's what happened to the Darksider video game series, it did reasonably well as a used product, but no one (hyperbolic) bought it new.  So THQ (who is not going to see Gamestop's numbers) believed that the game wasn't good enough and shut down the studio that made it, shortly before shutting down their own operations.

So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

You assume I would buy it at full price. I won't. You seem to be a video gamer but I have a feeling you're young.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;905802There's also the possibility that the person who sold that used book will use that extra money towards buying a new product from the company. I don't see the zero sum game that some are seeing here.

Or that the person buying the used product was going to buy new but just got the used instead. If a company wants to increase their sales revenue they need to make products that provide enough value that people want to pay the full price. That's purely on the firm and not the consumer.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

You are advocating a philosophy of supporting publishers you like, and there are many who share your feeling. But the book trade (and software trade) don't inherently work that way. The book trade also predates our hobby.

A physical game book is almost purely a physical product (with some legal prohibitions and maybe a grant, in the case of any opened OGL content). A physical game book gets worn out and can lose perceived value and utility through continuous use. You cannot easily 'clone' a book - you can try to reproduce it by photocopying or by scanning, but the result has less utility than the original (and then there are any issues of fair use, etc). My understanding of the book trade is that publishers are not getting 70% if they are going through distribution to reach retail, and more like 40%. I am sure they have stock rotation and stock balancing as well which can mess up your numbers.

Software is almost purely intellectual property. You are granted rights to use it. "Wear and tear" can happen to a physical delivery mechanism but that doesn't typically reduce the value of the software itself. Software rights can be transferable or non-transferable, and if its transferable the use of it is as pristine as the original purchase. I don't honestly see the 'used software' industry staying around in the next 5-10 years because I expect that all software will become subscription based. I do think piracy plays a role in demise of some studios but  that's because its one of many variables in a high risk industry where salaries are incredibly high and R&D planning is extremely difficult - I would never kickstart a software project without it being almost demonstrably finished and some additional value gained from supporting it (because it will eventually be available cheaper on Steam).

I usually buy on Amazon. The publisher is usually selling the book new, and often it is at a substantial savings because they are smart enough to understand price points on a high(er) volume retailer. That's where I got Pathfinder originally at close to 50% off cover price.

I get your argument that you may want to support a publisher, yet if you followed the discussion recently here about 'paying creators what they deserve' I think that point has been argued out for a lot of people. Pay full cover price and buy direct (maximize the creator benefit that way) if you want.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Then you both need reading comprehension skills because that's what you want to believe I said.  Projecting much?

You repeatedly bring this stuff upon yourself, but then magically it is anyone and everyone but you who are to blame. It's not them projecting or needing reading comprehension skills, it is you needing to learn how to communicate in an effective and constructive manner.

You have a point buried in these posts. A valid one regarding using the money one spends to influence the behaviors of the market from which you buy (although I don't think I agree, because buying and selling used books is a socially normatized action which the book producers expect in their business model). It's too bad that these points got made several posts after you suggested people's socially acceptable actions were not smart, their reasons fallacious, that other people are making strawmans (seriously, just stop using this word, you obviously can't be trusted to use it productively), that others need to 'make [them]sel[ves] feel better about used product shops,' etc.

Quote from: Lynn;905821You are advocating a philosophy of supporting publishers you like, and there are many who share your feeling.

Not entirely accurate for me.  Support the PRODUCT.  Unfortunately, they tend to be tied to specific companies.

But that's the last I'll say on this.

I've already given my suggestion:  Paizo put out their rules onto a website, and the OP who still wants to use his 3.x stuff, but may want to look into adding, modifying or otherwise tinker with the system, may want to peruse that website (provided for free and legally so) to see if there's anything in it for him.

For me, there's nothing more I can add on the original topic.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905867I've already given my suggestion:  Paizo put out their rules onto a website, and the OP who still wants to use his 3.x stuff, but may want to look into adding, modifying or otherwise tinker with the system, may want to peruse that website (provided for free and legally so) to see if there's anything in it for him.

They done that several years ago.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Conversion-Guide
It's a free download.

Quote from: yosemitemike;906006http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Conversion-Guide
It's a free download.

Shame on Pazio for stealing sales from Pazio! :rolleyes: