Quote from: dragoner;903793No, science is close to common sense, why it's so little understood.

Kind of but not really.  That's somewhat true for phenomenon that exist on a scale close to the scale that humans live and perceive on though relying on common sense rather than rigorous observation leads to many cognitive biases even on that scale.  The further phenomenon get away from human scales, they more common sense goes out the window.  By the time you get to, say, a quantum scale common sense has gone right out of the window.

Science is little understood because most people, including you by the way, don't understand what it is or how it works.

lol I didn't think that making the statement would cause idiots to flock around me, however, I should have known, esp knowing what a cesspool this place is, so mea culpa. I still stand by the comment, it is irrefutable, you will find me unapologetic about that.

Quote from: dragoner;903803lol I didn't think that making the statement would cause idiots to flock around me, however, I should have known, esp knowing what a cesspool this place is, so mea culpa. I still stand by the comment, it is irrefutable, you will find me unapologetic about that.

Your irrefutable comment was refuted a while ago.  It was refuted by your own source.  If you repeat something enough times it becomes true though so keep fighting the good fight.

Quote from: yosemitemike;903806Your irrefutable comment was refuted a while ago.  It was refuted by your own source.  If you repeat something enough times it becomes true though so keep fighting the good fight.

Irony. You keep telling yourself that though. :rolleyes:

Quote from: dragoner;903807Irony. You keep telling yourself that though. :rolleyes:

You forget to declare yourself to be irrefutable.  Your argumentum ad naseum will never work if you forget to do that.

I don't have to, once I write something, it becomes history.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;903777That is a wonderful book, but boy can it be a slog to work through the entire thing.

Yeah, but it's worth it.  Then again I'm a stone Braudel fan, and have worked through damn near everything he published.  It tends to counteract the tendency of the average gamer who fancies himself a historian to go no further than Gies and Coulton, full stop.

Guys, c'mon.  Get a grip.  Dragoner is trolling you all.  Stop trying to argue with him, refute him, rebut him, appeal to reason, quote him back to himself, whatever.  He is plainly going to keep on saying "Whatever you say proves I'm right and you're wrong, wrong,, W!R!O!N!G!!!", as often as you pour more gas on the flame, in classic argumentum ad trumpi.

Walk away from the troll bridge ...

Quote from: Ravenswing;903812Guys, c'mon.  Get a grip.  Dragoner is trolling you all.  Stop trying to argue with him, refute him, rebut him, appeal to reason, quote him back to himself, whatever.  He is plainly going to keep on saying "Whatever you say proves I'm right and you're wrong, wrong,, W!R!O!N!G!!!", as often as you keep on pouring more gas on the flame, in classic argumentum ad trumpi.  Obvious troll is obvious.

Yeah, I think if ever there was a good case for the Ignore List, we have one here.

Don't post when drunk kids. :eek:

Maybe we need some Norwegians to go troll hunting for us.

And for fucks sake people, haven't any of you learned to spot a troll when you see them?  This isn't a out of focus picture of bigfoot, we see this shit all the time.

Quote from: Ravenswing;903811Yeah, but it's worth it.  Then again I'm a stone Braudel fan, and have worked through damn near everything he published.  It tends to counteract the tendency of the average gamer who fancies himself a historian to go no further than Gies and Coulton, full stop.

It is definitely worth it. Pointing out the difficulty. Though I don't think one needs to read Braudel's complete works to be a knowledgeable of history. He can be dry and cover a lot of ground. I've read many of his works and still don't consider myself much of an expert on anything. But he was a very important historian and the level of detail he gets into in things like Civilization and Capitalism is astounding. Also for anyone interested in Mediterranean history, he is a must read. Same for the Long Duree. I'm just saying if you hand someone Civilization and Capitalism as a gift, it is more likely to be used as a three volume paper weight rather than read cover to cover. Not because the recipient is stupid or uninterested in history but because you've given them something that even a lot of historians have only read excerpts from.

Quote from: Ravenswing;903812Guys, c'mon.  Get a grip.  Dragoner is trolling you all.  Stop trying to argue with him, refute him, rebut him, appeal to reason, quote him back to himself, whatever.  He is plainly going to keep on saying "Whatever you say proves I'm right and you're wrong, wrong,, W!R!O!N!G!!!", as often as you pour more gas on the flame, in classic argumentum ad trumpi.

Walk away from the troll bridge ...

Ha! right.  Thanks for the education.  I'm not particularly internet savvy - obviously.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;903854It is definitely worth it. Pointing out the difficulty. Though I don't think one needs to read Braudel's complete works to be a knowledgeable of history. He can be dry and cover a lot of ground. I've read many of his works and still don't consider myself much of an expert on anything. But he was a very important historian and the level of detail he gets into in things like Civilization and Capitalism is astounding. Also for anyone interested in Mediterranean history, he is a must read. Same for the Long Duree. I'm just saying if you hand someone Civilization and Capitalism as a gift, it is more likely to be used as a three volume paper weight rather than read cover to cover. Not because the recipient is stupid or uninterested in history but because you've given them something that even a lot of historians have only read excerpts from.

Well, I admit that you don't really "read" a work like that.  You study it, grasp its arguments, methods and approach, compare it, take it piece by piece and digest it, understand how it has affected the work of others and changed the field, use it as a reference, etc.  I consider that I have "read" Braudel, and I have over the decades, but not cover to cover like a novel.  That would be brutal.

Quote from: Madprofessor;903862Well, I admit that you don't really "read" a work like that.  You study it, grasp its arguments, methods and approach, compare it, take it piece by piece and digest it, understand how it has affected the work of others and changed the field, use it as a reference, etc.  I consider that I have "read" Braudel, and I have over the decades, but not cover to cover like a novel.  That would be brutal.

That is a somewhat exceptional book in terms of the topic it covers and its structure. I think if you are sufficiently determined, or you have clear goals in the reading, it is possible. I read The Structures of Everyday life of the series cover to cover. It was certainly a beast and you still need to go back and study individual sections to really make good use of it.

He has some good cover to cover books (Memory and the Mediterranean is a nice introduction to some of his major ideas in a fairly readable format for example...though it was published after his death I believe).