Quote from: jeff37923;902505.....and then there are fraud horror stories like Ken Whitman.

Luckily those are in the extreme minority; more often is the exceptionally long delays by people who on't understand exactly what they're doing before they have the Kickstarter. As I only seem to hear about kickstarters in regards to this hobby, these seem to be relatively common with rpgs and boardgames, much less so for miniatures, and I have no idea how prevalent it is in other categories.

Honestly I get more frustrated by kickstarters whereupon that ends up being the only way to get the product, and they never actually make it to or intend an actual retail presence. There's a lot of stuff thats been successful KS, the backers get it, then you never hear about it again.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;902453Not just plenty, most do.

In my experience, unless you count delays, those are the extreme minority.

Quote from: AsenRG;902530In my experience, unless you count delays, those are the extreme minority.

When the "delays" start turning into years... for some it effectively is a failure.

Though hate to say it. but its sometimes rather hilarious to watch some backers freak out over a mere 2 year or even one year delay when there are games delayed 3 or 4 years, probably some even longer. Game Salute has this down to a science now.

Quote from: Omega;902546[...] hilarious to watch some backers freak out over a mere 2 year or even one year delay when there are games delayed 3 or 4 years, probably some even longer. Game Salute has this down to a science now.

In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

While I think it is fair to expect things on time, I also think giving someone money before something is done always carries risk. Especially when it is clear there are a lot of people using this who don't have prior experience launching a Kickstarter. Folks really ought to be cautious before handing strangers online cash. Heck there was a huge fiasco with a non-RPG Kickstarter where the guy handling the money used hundreds of thousands of it to build his dream home (it looks like he will be doing jail time). I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902567I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

I think that's far too negative.

Do a little research. Are they an established company, who are putting their reputation on the line? Do they have experience managing small RPG projects from start to finish (which means all the stuff that has nothing to do with writing), like Kevin Crawford or Greg Stolze? Do they seem to understand the business process, and does it look like they've explored the costs for things like shipping (including international), printing, art, and so on? Those go in the positive column.

Is their sole experience in the RPG industry as a freelancer writer? (Even if you recognize their name, that doesn't mean they know anything about editing, art direction, layout, printing, taxes, etc.) Do they just have some vague "idea", and little idea how to implement it? Do they have past failed projects? Does the risks and challenges section include the words "if I'm hit by a bus"? Are they promising too much, in the stretch goals? Those are all major negatives.

That won't catch every fiasco (ahem GMS), but it helps apportion risk. And negatives don't mean AVOID UNCLEAN -- it just means those projects are higher risk. Decide how much risk you're willing to accept, and allocate your money appropriately.

I don't have any problem occasionally throwing some money in the direction of a high risk project that sounds interesting, especially if the creator is enthusiastic. I don't put as much money in high risk projects as I do in lower-risk projects, and I'm less likely to back them in the first place, but I do back those kinds of projects because I think they're the whole point of Kickstarter. Not preordering the latest set of Reaper minis (yawn), but helping some outsider make their dream become reality. If it fails, too bad. I'm out a few bucks. But when it succeeds, it's really cool.

And most projects succeed, though it requires adjusting expectations a bit. Because, let's be honest, Kickstarters never finish on time. (There are exceptions, but they're so rare that bringing them up is misleading). And they might not achieve everything that was promised. But out-and-out failures, where someone just blows through (or even more rarely, walks away with) the money and the backers end up with zilch? That's fairly rare.

This isn't a rich industry. There's not a big pile of cash that attracts vultures who don't give a shit about RPGs, and just want $$$. It's a hobby industry. Excepting scum like Whitman, everybody has good intentions. It's safe to assume that anyone who starts a Kickstarter is really excited, really wants it to succeed, and really wants to share their cool idea with others. Failures are almost always failures, not malice. Underbudgeting. Not understanding the logistics. Promising too much. Not accounting for shipping. Forgetting taxes. A million other things.

Though when Kickstarters go bad, they're rarely handled well. Usually, there's dead silence. Things start going bad, backers start demanding, the tone turns hostile, and it's easier just to curl up and hide. Occasionally, this turns into hostility and blaming. And I've never seen a failed Kickstarter where the creator admits that in a timely fashion, provides a solid accounting of where the money went, returns what's left, and calls it quits. So yeah, there will be some of that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Well said.  I think the way to do a KS is to have the product done, except for the high cost stuff or art and layout for printing.  Then that should all be planned and ready to go if funding is provided.  THEN, keep your KS money in a separate account so you can refund fairly if you ever need to, e.g. your artists flake on you, the publisher jacks prices on you.  With tiers and number of max members per tier, combined with minimum funding level you should be able to cover costs.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Was more referring to people who freak out at delays when there were obvious red flags or the company has a known track record of monsterous delays. No one backing a Game Salute game now has any right to bitch when it is inevitibly late. And seen a few too many backers who start complaining at any delay. But as you note. That is part of the many misconceptions of what KS is. And not helped in that some publishers are using KS as essentially a store front to buy goods.

Personally I get irked with campaigns that set a date that doesnt seem realistic based on whats been shown. Which seems increasingly a ploy now to trick backers. Sure sometimes its just that the campaign did not expect the level of success they got and now have to scramble to cover an order larger than they thought.

I wouldnt mind so much of they at least admitted they miscalculated and set a more sane date rather than pushing the date back every 2 months.

Posterchild for that is currently HeroQuest 25th. Assuming a prodigious rate of mini sculpting. There was no way theyd be done in less than a year. And sure enough 2 years later they are still sculpting. Though nearly done and close to my projected timeline of being done around December 2016

Eh.

Quote from: Omega;902695Posterchild for that is currently HeroQuest 25th. Assuming a prodigious rate of mini sculpting. There was no way theyd be done in less than a year. And sure enough 2 years later they are still sculpting. Though nearly done and close to my projected timeline of being done around December 2016

Uh... maybe not...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2113976860/heroquest-25th-anniversary

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902567Heck there was a huge fiasco with a non-RPG Kickstarter where the guy handling the money used hundreds of thousands of it to build his dream home (it looks like he will be doing jail time). I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

Was that Doom that Came to Atlantic City?

He didnt just buy a house. He bought movie making equipment and made at least one indie movie on the sly.

Quote from: Crüesader;902696Uh... maybe not...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2113976860/heroquest-25th-anniversary

It went to another European KS and funded there. Lanzanos. (After getting canned a second time on a second non-US KS type).

http://www.lanzanos.com/proyectos/heroquest-25-aniversario/necesidades/

And despite the red flags on the KS, before it was shut down it had garnered I believe around 300k US in just the short time it was up.

It was Moon Design. The folks doing one of the RuneQuest RPGs that shut down the Kickstarter after GZ refused to provide proof that they actually had the permissions from Hasbro to use the game that they claimed they did. Its a long sordid story still playing out.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902567While I think it is fair to expect things on time, I also think giving someone money before something is done always carries risk. Especially when it is clear there are a lot of people using this who don't have prior experience launching a Kickstarter. Folks really ought to be cautious before handing strangers online cash. Heck there was a huge fiasco with a non-RPG Kickstarter where the guy handling the money used hundreds of thousands of it to build his dream home (it looks like he will be doing jail time). I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

You know, there's a certain kickstarter for the 'spiritual successor' to a certain shut-down superhero MMORPG that had a shitload of developers with ZERO actual game development experience, the writers had never written anything professionally, and the artists were... lousy.

People threw over $600k at this game.

It's been 3 years and all I've seen is a little video where it shows a landscape that the average 3d artist can make in a few days.

I'm convinced they took the money and ran.

Quote from: Jetstream;902677See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

That's utterly false. A Kickstarter is not an investment. Investments involve putting up capital or assets, in expectation of a financial return. Almost all RPG Kickstarters involve paying money for a future product. There's no equity involved, that's a preorder. Investments like those made by venture capital firms are completely different (and very heavily regulated, simply because they're so high risk; you have to be a very high-wealth individual to even participate).

And the agreement between the backers and the creator of a project is absolutely a contract. Even before the terms of service were changed a couple years ago to make it explicit[1], it was a contract. There's no way to dispute that, because that's what a contract is: An agreement between two people to exchange X for Y. In this case, money for the rewards. While it generally won't make any financial sense to try to enforce the contract (for the simple reason that individual backers generally only lose a small amount, so even talking to a lawyer would cost more than any conceivable return), it's still a contract.

[1] "When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract."

Quote from: Omega;902699Was that Doom that Came to Atlantic City?

He didnt just buy a house. He bought movie making equipment and made at least one indie movie on the sly.

I think he was referring to Peachy Printer: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/11/peachy-printer-collapses-investor-built-a-house-instead-of-a-printer/