Quote from: Spinachcat;899117And that's when you hit him with your plasma cannon. Laugh that off King Toasted Dude!

"As the glare subsides you see King Henry standing there, patting out a few smouldering spots on his tabard.  'Thou hast chosen to trifle with the wrong Plantagenet, little man,' he says to you."

Quote from: Ravenswing;899141RIGHT HERE is why most gamers get this wrong: the general paradigm that PCs are the lords of creation, and that they're not merely above petty trifles like laws, taxes, customs and monarchs, but society pretty much exists by their sufferance.

That's pretty much what would happen in D&D. A 10th level wizard can wipe out a town without breaking a sweat. A 10th level fighter can chop down the king's guards and stride through with meaningless scratches. Just +1 Plate and +1 Shield gives an AC that barely any regular humans will crack. And if they do? They do 1D6 damage against a 10th level fighter in OD&D with 10D6+CON bonuses. In 5e, that 10th level fighter could have 100 HP.

And if the PCs can fly? Teleport? Become invisible? Good luck for the monarchs that don't have the same magic on their side.

Quote from: Ravenswing;899141The way I figure, the rulers always have more power than the PCs.  That's why they're the rulers, and the PCs aren't.  Power structures survive by defeating challenges to their authority, not by cowering before them or ignoring them.  If the PCs refuse to pay taxes, obey laws or respect customs, then they're liable to be stomped.  If they resist stomping, the rulers just send a larger army.

That works excellently with fantasy RPGs with a lower power curve. In D&D, the rulers might find their army slain, reanimated or polymorphed, then sent back home.

PCs in D&D - especially high level - have power that's beyond NPCs who aren't crafted to have the same power. So in those settings, either the rulers have to have more powerful magic at their side, or they have to deal with PCs as individuals outside their societal control.

In D&D, PCs are what the nobles need to counter the multitude of monsters who will eat their helpless peasants, thrash their spear and shield militias, and then snack on whoever's left in the castle.

Unlike all the "normals", PCs don't make morale rolls and rarely fear checks, thus they represent a tiny set of people who can do what an army couldn't achieve. And that's why at least in most D&D settings (not all), PCs are rock stars who exist outside of the normal societal rules.

Quote from: Bren;899142The other thing western moderns don't get is how in grained bowing to authority is in hierarchical societies and how much social pressure there is to show proper deference. People often play their PCs as with no notion of deference to anyone who can't physically (or magically) swat them like a bug.

In the Richard Lester/Michael York/Richard Chamberlain/et cetera "The Four Musketeers," there is an absolutely LOVELY scene.  Rochfort says something that pisses off Richeleau, and Chuckie Heston glares and says "On your knees, little man, before your master!"  Christopher Lee turns three shades of green and drops to his knees, because he realizes that Richeleau could call the guards, say "take the Comte de Rochfort to the Bastille and behead him," write it on a piece of paper, sign it, and give it to the guards...

... and Rochfort would be killed, and there was not a DAMN thing he could do about it.  He had absolutely no recourse.

Quote from: Spinachcat;899157That works excellently with fantasy RPGs with a lower power curve. In D&D, the rulers might find their army slain, reanimated or polymorphed, then sent back home.

PCs in D&D - especially high level - have power that's beyond NPCs who aren't crafted to have the same power.

That REALLY depends on the referee and the edition.  I have always assumed that there are bigger badasses than the PCs.

"I've never seen anything like it. What do you CALL this act?"

"The aristocrats!"

Quote from: The Butcher;899143Ever waited tables at a posh restaurant?

Some are nice, some are awful, most are indifferent — but all are above you. And they know it.

Aristocracy is alive and well, at least in my country.

Once again, sounds like here.  You sure you don't live in America?

Quote from: Ravenswing;899141Seriously, think of a standoff in your hometown.  What would happen if the band of desperadoes shot it out with the police, and won?  Would the government say, "Oh, that's alright then" and ignore them, or would the ante be upped to the tune of two hundred police, with armored personnel carriers and units of the army in their wake?
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You are asuming a government that has these 200 men as spare (or has them at all).

I think it will mostly depend upon how the group behaved else and if someone important (not necessary the complete current government itself) thought they can parley with them and how much losses people with interests think it will probably take when they continue the conflict or if they think they can win at all.

With the fitting mage in the adventure group we are talking about kind of nuclear armed desparados. Can you probably kill him first. Probably bit the inverse of "probably" is probably not, or not before he has done massive damage, double if the group for example is not just somne marauders but i.e. some mercenaries you want to cheat and you don´t exactly know who is (or are) the critical persons.

At some point the government or someone else who has an important voice will make the government responsible for these losses. Can you deal with revolting troups or revolting civilians at the same time you have an up to now unstopable menace in the town?

I just recently have read a story about a notorious pirate that a government in the south east "stopped" by giving an amnesty and a lush pension.



How an aristocraty deals with the commoners will probably depend upon cultural norms and traditions (and how this is lived  by their peers) , how sure their power is and how much cooperation they need from the commoners to keep their own "jobs".

In general people only really value things that are under threat.

You only really got complicated codes of chivalry and bushido developed when a warrior class's status as a warrior class is in danger of becoming obsolete.

Similarly people are only really touchy about their status when their status is under threat, for example by a rising middle class. A more secure aristocracy is going to be a lot less formal and prickly and you'll have a lot more people just not giving a shit what their lessers think about them instead of trying to go out of their way to lord over them.

I love the comments about nobles have ALL the power and may use that power with impunity. That may have been the case in medieval times, but it does not hold up in a modern or fantasy setting. The aristocrats may be the rulers, but without the support (even grudgingly) of the populace they are governing then they may be cast down and killed in a rebellion (possibly by the PCs themselves). There has to be some public relations work done on behalf of the aristocrats to help keep them in power, especially when a PC magic-user or an ethically challenged merchant with a ship is not an uncommon occurrence. Yeah, you could say that the nobles are just more powerful than the PCs but that is like saying that since you are DM you can always use a bigger hammer against the PCs.

Aristocrats and nobles exist for a reason and rise or fall in power for logical reasons based upon their actions. Nobles are not immune to politics, economics, or even just plain old bad luck.

Quote from: Spinachcat;899157That's pretty much what would happen in D&D. A 10th level wizard can wipe out a town without breaking a sweat. A 10th level fighter can chop down the king's guards and stride through with meaningless scratches. Just +1 Plate and +1 Shield gives an AC that barely any regular humans will crack. And if they do? They do 1D6 damage against a 10th level fighter in OD&D with 10D6+CON bonuses. In 5e, that 10th level fighter could have 100 HP.

And if the PCs can fly? Teleport? Become invisible? Good luck for the monarchs that don't have the same magic on their side.

No, not quite.  That's how it's portrayed in most D&D campaigns.  There's nothing inherent about the game system itself that establishes that PCs are automatically more powerful than NPCs.

Because, I'm sorry.  If I'm the king?  Then I'm the bloody king.  I've got 10th level fighters and powerful wizards in my employ, and I don't see any reason why my own guards can't have +1 Shields and +1 Plate.  Why?  Because I'm the king.  I can afford them, and I can't afford not to have them.  My tax collectors will be waiting at the exits of the dungeons, thanks.

Never mind that any sane fantasy society would strictly control what magics random schmucks were allowed to learn.  If I'm the king, I declare the teaching of teleport and invisibility spells (outside my own magically-oath-bound wizard cadre, that is) a capital offense, and I make sure the Mages' Guild gets that their continued existence -- never mind their independence -- rests on them toeing the line.

If I can't pull all of this off, then I'm a weak ruler, and I'm at the mercy of the first person powerful enough to overthrow me.  This is the way of the world, after all: aristocracies based neither on wealth or power soon become coopted by those who do have wealth and/or power.

Of course most D&D campaigns don't work that way.  They're power fantasies, after all, and the attraction of RPGs to many is that you don't have to take crap from anyone, you can kill anyone you don't like, and you're rolling in vast wealth.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899161That REALLY depends on the referee and the edition.  I have always assumed that there are bigger badasses than the PCs.

Agreed. Different settings, different expectations.

If you assume nobles are ex-PCs who rose to name rank, then they've got some skills and toys to back up that swagger.  If each noble in OD&D is 9th level or higher and has a loyal retinue of 6th-8th level dudes with magic goodies, then they are going to be at least a match for mid to high level PCs.

But what about those nobles' non-adventuring spoiled brat kids?

BTW, loved the King Henry retort. When are we getting your book?

Quote from: Spinachcat;899178When are we getting your book?

The million dollar question.......

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899151To the real "blue bloods" there is very little difference between a "commoner" and a car. In fact I would argue that for most the car is far more significant and valuable.

One has one's car washed, but a peasant is always dirty.

Quote from: jeff37923;899176I love the comments about nobles have ALL the power and may use that power with impunity. That may have been the case in medieval times, but it does not hold up in a modern or fantasy setting ...

Missed the part where the OP discussed "medieval" aristocrats and had "realistic" in the thread title?

I don't expect anyone to dispute that the bog-standard D&D setting is a PC's playpen, which many players treat as little more than a save point between dungeons, and containing little beyond mooks used as speedbags, without any worry of anything genuinely tough telling the PCs what to do.

I also presume no one who isn't a fanatic fanboy or threadcrapping would call it "realistic."

Now, yes: there are a number of milieus where social elites are constrained by politics, economics, legalities, religion and/or custom instead of naked power.  All to the good.  In which case the PCs should be just as constrained by those factors, and just as likely to be treated as outcasts, criminals or traitors if they flout them.

Quote from: Ravenswing;899208In which case the PCs should be just as constrained by those factors, and just as likely to be treated as outcasts, criminals or traitors if they flout them.

I guess you missed the part where my 27th level wizard destroyed Orcus and my friend the Paladin with the girdle of Storm Giant Strength, +5 Plate, and +5 Holy Avenger Vorpal Sword killed Odin and turned his eight-legged horse into his Charger. We laugh at your puny "constraints."





Do I need to include a eye rolling smiley.