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I need help developing a Pacifist

Started by infinitum3d, April 03, 2016, 01:18:49 PM

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Christopher Brady

Quote from: dragoner;889461Use Orwell's argument to say that a pacifist Paladin is basically being complicit with evil.

Thing is, he is.  By doing nothing, they are letting Evil win.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

dragoner

Quote from: Christopher Brady;889465Thing is, he is.  By doing nothing, they are letting Evil win.

That would be Orwell's argument. http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/pacifism/english/e_patw
The most beautiful peonies I ever saw ... were grown in almost pure cat excrement.
-Vonnegut

Christopher Brady

Quote from: dragoner;889472That would be Orwell's argument. http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/pacifism/english/e_patw

To which I have to agree, sadly.  Or as Edmund Burke is quoted to have said:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.


So now that I think on it, a Paladin can NEVER be a pacifist, ever.  And a Good Aligned God would never force one to be.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

JesterRaiin

#33
Quote from: Christopher Brady;889483Or as Edmund Burke is quoted to have said:

Burke was wrong, I'm afraid. He gave "good" too much credit.

The only thing required for any party, group or organization to succeed is what we call "luck". A good dose of persistence helps a lot, but without reality succumbing to your will, there's no hope for success, no matter if one's endeavors find an opposition or not.

As for "a pacifist" Paladin - fluff-wise it's possible. After all, it's not that Paladins don't evolve. A young Paladin might have idealistic point of view, only to learn during his adventures that world is more complicated than "there's no need for a violence". It could've been, in fact, a task his deity (providing he follows one - Paladin's ain't Clerics and even the latter might bow to no god) selected for him: a long quest to understand what it takes to be the true Defender.

From the point of view of RPG: pacifists are total pain in the ass.
"If it\'s not appearing, it\'s not a real message." ~ Brett

soltakss

#34
Quote from: Doughdee222;889350I never watched it, but wasn't the guy from the TV show Kung Fu a pacifist? Didn't he just wait until they got close then beat everyone unconscious?

It was something like:
Restrain rather than hurt.
Hurt rather than maim.
Maim rather than kill.

And Bren beat me to it with the proper sequence. I should read all the posts before posting ...
Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism  since 1982.

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Dave 2

Quote from: infinitum3d;889200But being a true pacifist is boring. I'm trying to figure out how to walk the line between funny and douchebag. I don't want to be a blatant jerk but I want the game to be enjoyable to me also.

I can use nuisance actions like sneezing when the ranger uses his bow and things like that to avoid causing harm to others, but I don't want to be a jerk about it.

In general, simply negating your fellow players' actions is one of the more annoying things you can do.  

Being a passive-aggressive, sneaky jerk is just as bad as being a blatant jerk.  Any "line" between class clown and douchebag is still a douchebag.  It's like getting crap mixed in your vanilla ice cream; no matter how little you put in, there's still crap in your ice cream.

My sincere and serious advice is don't try to be cute about making your group play under the same terms as your atonement and just play your own character.

A small number of conscientious objectors served in uniform as medics in World War II.  Three actually won for the Medal of Honor for their actions.

Spoiler
[Desmond Doss] was a company aid man when the 1st Battalion assaulted a jagged escarpment 400 feet high. As our troops gained the summit, a heavy concentration of artillery, mortar and machinegun fire crashed into them, inflicting approximately 75 casualties and driving the others back. Pfc. Doss refused to seek cover and remained in the fire-swept area with the many stricken, carrying all 75 casualties one-by-one to the edge of the escarpment and there lowering them on a rope-supported litter down the face of a cliff to friendly hands.

On May 2, he exposed himself to heavy rifle and mortar fire in rescuing a wounded man 200 yards forward of the lines on the same escarpment; and 2 days later he treated 4 men who had been cut down while assaulting a strongly defended cave, advancing through a shower of grenades to within 8 yards of enemy forces in a cave's mouth, where he dressed his comrades' wounds before making 4 separate trips under fire to evacuate them to safety.

On May 5, he unhesitatingly braved enemy shelling and small arms fire to assist an artillery officer. He applied bandages, moved his patient to a spot that offered protection from small arms fire and, while artillery and mortar shells fell close by, painstakingly administered plasma. Later that day, when an American was severely wounded by fire from a cave, Pfc. Doss crawled to him where he had fallen 25 feet from the enemy position, rendered aid, and carried him 100 yards to safety while continually exposed to enemy fire.

On May 21, in a night attack on high ground near Shuri, he remained in exposed territory while the rest of his company took cover, fearlessly risking the chance that he would be mistaken for an infiltrating Japanese and giving aid to the injured until he was himself seriously wounded in the legs by the explosion of a grenade. Rather than call another aid man from cover, he cared for his own injuries and waited 5 hours before litter bearers reached him and started carrying him to cover. The trio was caught in an enemy tank attack and Pfc. Doss, seeing a more critically wounded man nearby, crawled off the litter; and directed the bearers to give their first attention to the other man. Awaiting the litter bearers' return, he was again struck, by a sniper bullet while being carried off the field by a comrade, this time suffering a compound fracture of 1 arm. With magnificent fortitude he bound a rifle stock to his shattered arm as a splint and then crawled 300 yards over rough terrain to the aid station. Through his outstanding bravery and unflinching determination in the face of desperately dangerous conditions Pfc. Doss saved the lives of many soldiers. His name became a symbol throughout the 77th Infantry Division for outstanding gallantry far above and beyond the call of duty.

So that's one model.  Stock up on bandages, potions of cure wounds, water bottles and rations, and play field medic.

Otherwise I like Doughdee's advice; I just can't tell at this remove if the GM will actually roll with it or if he's going to have to go on adventures.

Quote from: Doughdee222;889271Do something outside of the typical "Paladin" job, something that doesn't require arms and armor. Fasting in the desert is popular. Spend a month building homes for the homeless. Join a fishing boat crew for a month and work for free. Teach some children how to survive in the wilderness.

Omega

Quote from: infinitum3d;889454This is actually quite brilliant. I can become a target. Load up on armor and...
Wait. That still doesn't stop others from killing...

The whole purpose of this Atonement is to learn a different way of getting through an encounter, rather than just killing everything.

This idea can still be part of my overall action plan though.

Where does it say you have to stop others from fighting/killing?

That can easily get into the intense annoyance level or even campaign killer if overdone or done badly.

No one is likely to mind if you ask if you can try negotiating first.

 But resentments may start to build if you are trying to prevent them from fighting back while someone is firing arrows at them or launching a fireball. Or even just haranguing incessantly about it.

Opaopajr

There is a reason the old skool paladin had the most restrictive stat line -- and the highest stat was Charisma (17).

The paladin was the flower of virtue, a paragon of all moral and genteel things to which others aspire, if only in part. Sure they had CHA to lead others in battle, but the old skool rules limited who they will accept as allies, and they were also to be gracious for those who could not follow their stringency (let alone into being henchmen). That CHA (along with WIS) was to strike at evil with a sword more true than metal, with attraction to virtuous words and deeds -- it was to starve out evil from taking great root in the first place.

The atoning pacifist paladin will try to stop great evil with force if that is the last resort left, but they will try kindness first. And that doesn't necessarily mean pleading like a fool to the unrepentant and waiting for a response. That means talking to others as well, advising them on the most just course of action, aspiring others to be brave in their convictions and take action.

That is greater power projection than mere smiting. By making 'Good!' a popular choice, rather than some busybody heavy, the paladin weilds greater power through worthy virtuous reputation. That it gets blasty laser powers in the face of terrifying, unrepentant evil is just the bonus to help out on the really hard jobs.

TL;DR, Douchebag mercenary paladin likely makes the public sad... GM is giving you an opportunity to atone. Take him up on the offer and walk away from the obvious combat temptation.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
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crkrueger

#38
So let's break this down...

Paladin's player is tired and hungry and has Paladin kill something he clearly shouldn't have.  Presumably GM and Player both know it was a fuckup, and know why it was a fuckup.  

Let's assume for the sake of argument the GM is a good one.  All we know is the God said the Paladin had to "do no Harm" for the time between moons.

What's the point?  Obviously a God would know that during that month, Evil may be done because the Paladin can't kill, therefore we can establish that the God doesn't care about that, and there is a greater point here, so what could it be?

Discipline and Judgement.

If the Paladin is going to be of any use at all as a living instrument of the God's will, the Paladin has to know when to kill and when not to, when he is facing the redeemable and the unredeemable, whether his actions are doing more harm then good.

Thou shalt not Kill - pretty clear
Thou shalt not Murder - that one's got some wiggle room

Do no Violence - pretty clear
Do no Harm - that one's got some wiggle room

Remember, the point is CHOICE.  Discipline and Judgement.  The Paladin showed error in Judgement over whether to use violence, that must be corrected.  Choosing NOT to act is just as much of a test of Discipline and Judgement as choosing to act.

So, what does Do No Harm mean?  If the Paladin just stands there and lets an Ogre kill him, he's done harm - harm to himself.  He's chosen Harm to Himself over Harm to the Ogre.

Gods who are complete pacifists, who believe that doing harm, even to protect yourself or others is wrong, don't have Paladins.

The Caine Shaolin thing is pretty appropriate.
  • Avoid conflict if you can
  • Use non-lethal means if you can
  • Accept surrender always
  • Unless the only possible option is Death of an Innocent or Death of an Evildoer - Do Not Kill

There's also another choice...decide your God's ways aren't the way to get shit done and become the Punisher. :D

Edit: Do what Opa said above. ;)
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Hague

Let me get this straight: YOU did something that YOUR god didn't like and YOU have to atone for, but YOU decided that you were going to punish the rest of the group, too?

Total dick move.

I'd suggest you hang back and be a meat shield for whoever needs protection, and let the other characters take care of any enemies.

If someone who's allegedly on my team started sabotaging me, there would be consequences. What those are would depend on the GM and other players. At one extreme, your character might wake up dead one morning with a cut throat. More likely though I'd just piss off monsters, bad guys, whatever and draw them to you, let them do the dirty work.

YOUR punishment does not carry over to the rest of the group. Not the way it was worded in the first post, anyway.

Maybe just 'fall in a hole' (the reason we gave when a player was absent when I was a teen) for the next 30 days or so. Or go take up the monastery life for a month.

Ravenswing

Quote from: Christopher Brady;889483So now that I think on it, a Paladin can NEVER be a pacifist, ever.  And a Good Aligned God would never force one to be.
I disagree with your presumption.  A paladin's first duty is not to "fight evil."  It's to uphold the tenets and commands of his or her faith.  I don't see anything incongruous in a pacifist deity having pacifist paladins.

The second mistake you and some others are making is in presuming that all deities are rational.  Isn't it often the case in game settings that deities mimic Greek mythology in being petty, contentious, spiteful, arrogant, inconsistent, callous ... and, also often, just not very bright?  However much there's a two-letter "LG" tag next to their name in the setting text?

(Never mind game settings.  How about Genesis 22?)

I can easily picture a scene where the god's reply to the ex-paladin shouting "But that village was defenseless, and the orcs were about to sacrifice them all to the demon Moloch!" is "You disobeyed Me."

This was a cool site, until it became an echo chamber for whiners screeching about how the "Evul SJWs are TAKING OVAH!!!" every time any RPG book included a non-"traditional" NPC or concept, or their MAGA peeners got in a twist. You're in luck, drama queens: the Taliban is hiring.

Bren

Quote from: Ravenswing;889636I can easily picture a scene where the god's reply to the ex-paladin shouting "But that village was defenseless, and the orcs were about to sacrifice them all to the demon Moloch!" is "You disobeyed Me."

I believe that word in that context is spelled, "ME!"
Currently running: Runequest in Glorantha + Call of Cthulhu   Currently playing: D&D 5E + RQ
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Christopher Brady

Quote from: Ravenswing;889636I can easily picture a scene where the god's reply to the ex-paladin shouting "But that village was defenseless, and the orcs were about to sacrifice them all to the demon Moloch!" is "You disobeyed Me."


Then that is not a good God and should not have a Paladin serving him.  A Good God would not force innocents to die to prove a single exceedingly petty point.  Unless of course, you think being a dick, like the Grecian/Roman Gods is somehow beneficial to humanity, despite most of them having a hard time keepin' it in their togas.

I'm sorry, but a good God, is like a good person.  Unwilling to stand by and let 'evil' win to prove a point.  They do something about it, and if they can't directly, they get someone (One of their paladins) to do it for them.

What you are advocating is the same behaviour that leads people to play Lawful Stupid Paladins, which in turn, makes for wonderful stories about how the class is bad, because it forces people to be dicks to each other.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

infinitum3d

Quote from: Christopher Brady;889483To which I have to agree, sadly.  Or as Edmund Burke is quoted to have said:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.


So now that I think on it, a Paladin can NEVER be a pacifist, ever.  And a Good Aligned God would never force one to be.

So... You're saying the only way to be a good Paladin is to intentionally hurt people? Because that's the way this sounds.

I'm not sure what religion that comes from, but my God said 'thou shalt not kill'.

But maybe I'm being too literal here. No offense intended.

The intent of this Atonement is to learn a different way of dealing with a problem other than killing it.

infinitum3d

Quote from: Christopher Brady;889465Thing is, he is.  By doing nothing, they are letting Evil win.

No one said Do Nothing. They said Do something without hurting people. That's a big difference.