Quote from: DavetheLost;889006Are people in this thread serious when they talk about single, standard combat encounters taking three hours to resolve? Not the important, climactic, complex combats, but simple, run of the mill fights?

Deadly serious. There are no "run of the mill" fights in my 4e experience, you just don't bother unless it's a proper setup, because it takes that long to handle the basic processing of a fight.

EDIT: I should add my group aren't newbies or indecisive or anything. Same people managed a 100-participant skirmish in ACKS in 90 minutes. It's the system.

Quote from: RPGPundit;888976And?  What's 8 rounds?  In old D&D editions, in an average group, there's a good chance that's going to be less than 10 minutes.

Well, Gronan puts it at roughly 3 minutes per round. If your group is faster than his group, I'd suggest you fight him SCA style over which one is more typical of old-school groups:)!

Me, I simply haven't measured the time per round, but my bet would be at Gronan's group being more typical;).

For the short real time AD&D combat against the Kobolds, we're assuming no one is using the grappling rules, right?

Quote from: DavetheLost;889006Are people in this thread serious when they talk about single, standard combat encounters taking three hours to resolve? Not the important, climactic, complex combats, but simple, run of the mill fights?

You wish they were joking:D!
Now, some systems do indeed work so only for the important fights. Others can get a basic fight done in a much shorter time, and only fight long with important NPCs.
Still, there are also those that don't make a distinction, and every fight is a drag-out affair!

Quote from: DavetheLost;889019A three hour combat with a tactically engaging system and an expectation that the bulk of the session will be devoted to playing out the fight could be a lot of fun.

I remember one old scenario that was a bar room brawl with some thirty characters in it, each with their own motivations. It provided several hours of pretty much nothing but fight for a very large group. Fun, but I wouldn't want a steady diet of that.

Well, nobody's saying it should be the meat in your diet:).

Quote from: Bren;889356For the short real time AD&D combat against the Kobolds, we're assuming no one is using the grappling rules, right?

Obviously yes;).

Quote from: AsenRG;889353Well, Gronan puts it at roughly 3 minutes per round. If your group is faster than his group, I'd suggest you fight him SCA style over which one is more typical of old-school groups:)!

Me, I simply haven't measured the time per round, but my bet would be at Gronan's group being more typical;).

Cant resist those little digs every thread can you?

Heres what he said.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;883906I run OD&D, and with 4-5 players and a similar number of enemies a single combat turn runs in 2-3 minutes, and at lower levels a combat will last 4-8 combat turns.

When I ran OD&D in NYC I often got 4 or 5 combats into a 2 to 3 hour session.

That's one advantage of the OD&D one minute combat round, abstract everything, all creatures get one attack, all attacks do 1d6; it can run a combat blazingly fast.

Quote from: Bren;889356For the short real time AD&D combat against the Kobolds, we're assuming no one is using the grappling rules, right?

as a guy who has never played AD&D how bad are the grappling rule or is this more of a what the heck dose this mean sort of thing

Quote from: kosmos1214;889389as a guy who has never played AD&D how bad are the grappling rule or is this more of a what the heck dose this mean sort of thing

Infamously bad.


Not that D&D is unique in this respect.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;888276True, but many of the other rules elements are tied to combat. Lots of pages are spells (of which not a small number are conflict-related) and monsters  (many of which you probably wouldn't consider the talkative types). Half of the experience system is for killing stuff, the other half is basically a reward for exploration (which I think is the second vital part of 0e).

If you're playing RAW, then every monster encounter in OD&D should be preceded by a reaction check.

Also, the vast majority of the OD&D spell list has no combat applicability. And of those that do have combat applicability, virtually all of them also have significant non-combat applicability.

There are plenty of editions of D&D where it's true that most of the rules are about combat. It's just not true that OD&D is one of them.

Quote from: kosmos1214;889389as a guy who has never played AD&D how bad are the grappling rule or is this more of a what the heck dose this mean sort of thing

To put the awfulness of AD&D's grappling rules it in perspective, the grappling rules in 3E were a completely successful attempt at improving them in every possible way.

(The biggest problem with the 3E grappling rules was that they improved the system just enough so that people would actually try to use them instead of ignoring them.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;889417If you're playing RAW, then every monster encounter in OD&D should be preceded by a reaction check.

Also, the vast majority of the OD&D spell list has no combat applicability. And of those that do have combat applicability, virtually all of them also have significant non-combat applicability.

There are plenty of editions of D&D where it's true that most of the rules are about combat. It's just not true that OD&D is one of them.

A reaction check which often results in hostility. Also, don't forget:

QuoteMonsters will automatically attack and/or pursue any characters they "see", with the exception of those monsters which are intelligent enough to avoid an obviously superior force.

So most monsters will attack anyway.

I don't even know if I would agree that a vast majority of spells is not combat related. If combat is just rolling the dice and seeing what happens, then maybe yes; even though I would still say it is a vague quantification. Many of the spells actually work quite well inside combat, even if they don't do any damage--at least not actively.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. Combat, for me, obviously is a very important part of 0e. And it just so happens that it is fucking fun, a real thrill-ride. More so even, than in the way too rigorous later editions.

Look at your session reports for Caverns of Thracia. You don't call that combat heavy? C'mon. Doesn't mean it's not also heavy on exploration, but give me a break.

That being said, really diggin' what you do, Justin.

Quote from: kosmos1214;889389as a guy who has never played AD&D how bad are the grappling rule or is this more of a what the heck dose this mean sort of thing

A bit convoluted at first glance. Its percentile based and has the following procedures.

Cant grapple if holding anything.
Initiative is based on factors. Surprise>Charging>Higher DEX>Higher roll.
Damage done is 25% real and 75% temporary.
Unconscious at 0.
1: Attackers physical non magic item AC x10 to get the base. EG: rings and bracers do not count. Magic bonuses on armour does not count. This gets you the base %.

2: Modify that as follows.
+ attackers DEX.
+10-30% depending on how heavy the opponents armour is. Leather or padded is +10. Banded, Plate, and Splint is +30 for example.
-10% per 3" opponents movement faster
+20% if opponent Slowed or Stunned.
-20% if opponent hasted.

So my Magic user with a DEX of 14 has a base of 114%. But VS a hasted unarmoured opponent its down to 96%, IE: A 4% chance to fail to grapple. But if that hasted opponent were in Plate Id be at 124% chance to hit.

Once you connect you determine the type of hold with a percentile roll.
Base is attackers DEX + STR + 1 per 10% exceptional STR.
Modified by things like differences in weight and height and opponents DEX, STR, and heavy armour.

So my MU with said DEX 14 and a STR of 11 has a roll modifier of +24.
The higher the roll the better the grapple damage. So I will get at least an Arm Lock which is 1+STR bonus damage. In my case, that is 1.

So say I get my grapple then roll a 56. Thats an 80 with no other mods. Which is a headlock. 5 grapple damage. Against a guy in plate with a helmet and shield it would have been a hand lock for 2.

Actually pretty simple and not much different from some other RPGs core to hit modifier systems. Figure your base and make a little table for opponent AC and then apply the remaining mods if any.

Pummeling uses a simmilar system in AD&D. Not sure what 2e used?

Quote from: kosmos1214;889389as a guy who has never played AD&D how bad are the grappling rule or is this more of a what the heck dose this mean sort of thing

Terribad. Most games have atrocious grappling rules.

The rules for ACKS are actually pretty good - and easily plugged into anything D&D-like:

QuoteWRESTLING
Instead of making a melee attack, a combatant may attempt to wrestle with his opponent. To wrestle an opponent, a combatant must succeed on a melee attack throw with a -4 penalty. The opponent must then make a saving throw versus Paralysis. If the combatant is significantly larger than the opponent (an ogre wrestling a man, for instance) the opponent suffers a -4 penalty on his saving throw. If the opponent succeeds on his saving throw, he has shrugged off the combatant. If he fails, he has been grabbed in a wrestling hold. A combatant who has grabbed an opponent may perform a brawl, force back, disarm, or knock down action each round without having to make an attack throw so long as the hold continues (the opponent still receives a saving throw). A knock down or force back will end the hold, unless the wrestling combatant chooses to move with his held opponent. Other combatants are at +4 on attack throws against the held opponent, and thieves may backstab him. The held opponent may make another saving throw versus Paralysis each round to attempt to escape the hold.

quotes in spoiler

Spoiler

Quote from: Omega;889503A bit convoluted at first glance. Its percentile based and has the following procedures.

Cant grapple if holding anything.
Initiative is based on factors. Surprise>Charging>Higher DEX>Higher roll.
Damage done is 25% real and 75% temporary.
Unconscious at 0.
1: Attackers physical non magic item AC x10 to get the base. EG: rings and bracers do not count. Magic bonuses on armour does not count. This gets you the base %.

2: Modify that as follows.
+ attackers DEX.
+10-30% depending on how heavy the opponents armour is. Leather or padded is +10. Banded, Plate, and Splint is +30 for example.
-10% per 3" opponents movement faster
+20% if opponent Slowed or Stunned.
-20% if opponent hasted.

So my Magic user with a DEX of 14 has a base of 114%. But VS a hasted unarmoured opponent its down to 96%, IE: A 4% chance to fail to grapple. But if that hasted opponent were in Plate Id be at 124% chance to hit.

Once you connect you determine the type of hold with a percentile roll.
Base is attackers DEX + STR + 1 per 10% exceptional STR.
Modified by things like differences in weight and height and opponents DEX, STR, and heavy armour.

So my MU with said DEX 14 and a STR of 11 has a roll modifier of +24.
The higher the roll the better the grapple damage. So I will get at least an Arm Lock which is 1+STR bonus damage. In my case, that is 1.

So say I get my grapple then roll a 56. Thats an 80 with no other mods. Which is a headlock. 5 grapple damage. Against a guy in plate with a helmet and shield it would have been a hand lock for 2.

Actually pretty simple and not much different from some other RPGs core to hit modifier systems. Figure your base and make a little table for opponent AC and then apply the remaining mods if any.

Pummeling uses a simmilar system in AD&D. Not sure what 2e used?

Quote from: Kiero;889511Terribad. Most games have atrocious grappling rules.

The rules for ACKS are actually pretty good - and easily plugged into anything D&D-like:

ok so basically its considerably more work then necessary
 
also thous rules from acks look really nice

Quote from: kosmos1214;889658ok so basically its considerably more work then necessary
 
also thous rules from acks look really nice

No more complex than determining to-hit, bonuses and penalties for normal combat. The main thing is to note down your base score and armour adjustments. And just worry about the modifiers. If any. As I noted. Once you know your base chance the rest is easy. Front load that at chargen. What I did. Sd in the above example. My base is 114%. Against light armour it is 124, medium is 134, and heavy is 144. After that its just determining. "Who is faster? Is anyone slowed, stunned or hasted?" Grapple type modifier works much the same. Frontload your base and just worry about the modifiers which are also not that many.

The main drawback is it, and pummeling, is its own little mini-game instead of using the existing rules somehow. Its also not exactly well explained some elements.

Other systems intigrate it into the core combat. 5e for example.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;888985Assuming you've memorized the entire system from cover to cover, yeah.  Most people haven't.  So 8 rounds can last anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes, depending on familiarity.

You're making some awfully big assumptions there, Chief.

I was figuring a GM with fairly good knowledge of the rules, and players with fairly good knowledge of their PC's abilities, it's true.
But that's a 'control' variable you have to assume; because any system will be slower if you have people who don't know the system.

Quote from: RPGPundit;890232I was figuring a GM with fairly good knowledge of the rules, and players with fairly good knowledge of their PC's abilities, it's true.
But that's a 'control' variable you have to assume; because any system will be slower if you have people who don't know the system.

Which is my point.  Doesn't matter what's the system, it's the players (which I include the GM as) that makes the game fast or slow.