Quote from: Cave Bear;887412OD&D was a miniatures skirmish game.

Fight me.

Why? OD&D is terrible as well.

Quote from: jeff37923;887418Why? OD&D is terrible as well.

Shit taste detected.

First, I didn't like this about 4e:

Lengthy combats. Which I attribute to:
a) too many exception-based powers, AEDU. analysis paralysis.
b) too many stacking status effects. processing overload & gotcha! gaming.
c) whiff-tastic math penalizing heavily sub-optimal mods and "lack of proper build magic items." basically built-in power inflation for chargen & chase drops.
d) HP bloat & combat scaling. treadmill effect.

Combats in General:
e) poorly defined "retirement period," to graduate game from squad tactics to realm management or the like. all game structures weather and crumble as they approach infinity; there is no broad community benefit in stressing the math to its event horizons.
f) dissociative mechanics, namely snapping everything to the grid and encouterization, e.g. cube-spheres AoEs, Healing Surges, "all out of sword," ...
g) Action allocations. I've seen 5e still overwhelm a few players, but it is leagues better than 3e and 4e action subdivisions, combinations, and triggers.
h) Facing assumptions & AoOs. Flanking, rear attack, AoOs... terrible 3e legacy.
i) Initiative and surprise handling options. Still not happy with 5e's, even though it has been made looser.
j) Lack of Morale, Number Appearing, Wandering Monsters Table Suggestions, etc. to shift tactical play to strategic play.
k) Minions as a concept, and Bloodied as a noticeable condition.

Character Generation & Non-Combat:
a) I still hate Fort, Reflex, Will saves. Older 5 column versions or new 6 stat saves is vastly better in my view. Improving by 1/2 lvl was a step int the right direction but sloppy and indiscrete design.
b) Distribution and handling of skills. Too class restrictive, the general pool should be much larger. Also found 1/2 lvl sloppy and hyper mod dependence annoying.
c) Feats, period. Still a terrible kludge all these years.
d) Complete dissociation of weapon usage to functionality. Only needing one's best weapon, regardless of circumstance due to triggering, is jarring. My cleric's warhammer was just for looks — I couldn't really "wield" it, but it was necessary for Divine Smite et al. effects.
e) TOCKASC (The obscene clusterfuck known as skill challenges). The less said the better; let us enjoy our newfound sobriety.

And then there's art design, adventure structures, League Play (intro player, storyline, and challenge mode - I concede 5e has made great strides in this directions), PHB & MM splatting, etc.

Suffice it to say I don't find much worth retaining in 4e.

If I want to create a pared down Tactics Skirmish game though, it does have an intriguing chassis. I love me some Shining Force and Langrisser and similar old school turn-based tactics games. So, Daztur, I will explore with you what I would do to achieve this heroic! style of tactics skirmish play in my following posts.


(PS: I am going to stick to this topic, re-building atop a stripped 4e chassis, to the exclusion of other conversation here. I say this in advance because I am not interested in debating anyone else's opinions on this game as it currently is. I am interested in debating our houserule designs to get closer to one of our forum's wishes. Reply accordingly, please.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;887397I'm pretty sure you're just wrong on this one. The saving throw mechanics (PHB, pg. 279) state that the save is always made by the affected creature at the end of their turn. I did a search through about half the MM and there are no abilities that posit special rules for saving throws (just "save ends"). Also checked a chunk of a Monster Vault (to see if new design standards were used later on), and I'm not seeing anything in there, either.

Really not worth my time to look it up...but flipping through the rules a bit, I see the years have shaded my memory a bit. It's not saving throws, it's effects, hence my reference to "all those status effects." So, not saves, mea culpa, but effects.

 I see there are effects that end at the end of your next turn--not much different than the beginning of the next player's turn, or next monsters. Then there are effects until end of encounter.

Then there are effects that end when don't attack the right creature, effects that end when you move away, effects that end when you're not adjacent to the right creature, effects that begin when you're hurt for a certain amount of damage (eg, becoming bloodied), effects that end on your action (Escape, save DC, though not exactly a saving throw), effects that take effect within 2 squares of an ally (drake), effects that take effect when target is affected by something else, effects that take effect when you shift...and it goes on and on.

Don't get me wrong, rules are the rules, but trying to keep track of all that stuff when there are, say, 10 figures on the board is bloody hard. Toss in the "cool new power every level" paradigm of 4e and it gets like one of those children's songs that just stacks up and up and up.

I have to admit, 4e would have worked *great* as a computer game. A computer has no trouble tracking half a dozen conditional effects going off every turn...but it's a lot to ask, even at a table with engineers, mathematicians, grogs, and rules lawyers.

Quote from: cranebump;887416Yknow, I've heard this comment a few times. Having never tried this iteration, I am curious as to why it seems to be a better experience when running GW? Do the system mechanics fit better with the genre conceits?

Well it sure as hell wasnt better at running Gamma World. It was a total failure.

But from all accounts it streamlines the rules enough to make it managable and more RPG and less Board game. Though its still got alot of board game in it. Moreso since they tacked on that damn CCG element.

With nothing to compare to. At a personal guess. Possibly it cut down on the feats and mechanics. While still retaining the overall feel of 4e. Some have mentioned it feels like what a 4e D&D starter should have been.

Quote from: Cave Bear;887412OD&D was a miniatures skirmish game.

Fight me.

So... You dont even know what OD&D is...

Quote from: Cave Bear;887251Granted, it's exception based design, and I'm not familiar with every single monster power in the game, but that sounds like an edge case.



Granted, I've never had anyone play a Battlemind up to level 10.
But I'm looking through my copy of PHB3 right now.

What I see is a level 10 daily power that grants resistance (encounter duration), and a daily power that reduces damage to 0 (one time!)
The resistance thing is pretty damned strong, e.

Again, my bad, not blanket immunity to all damage (but I still maintain Battle Resiliance, eliminating the first 10 or so  points of all damage, all the time, in a system where level 10 minions don't hit for that much, is a bit strong), and you're probably right there might well be some obscure edge case to get around it...but let's focus on the actual point.

Focusing on the real issues, all the "cool powers" stack up to make the game a slog to play after a fistful of levels.

I'll now mention how the Battlerager (un-patched) was basically unstoppable, period, at low levels, just to give the obsessives something to do.

Quote from: Omega;887373I guess I am both lucky, and unfortunate, that my so far only exposure to 4e was via the Gamma World set since it left a relatively favourable impression of the 4e system.

Yknow, I've heard this comment a few times. Having never tried this iteration, I am curious as to why it seems to be a better experience when running GW? Do the system mechanics fit better with the genre conceits?

Quote from: Omega;887426So... You dont even know what OD&D is...

It's a Chainmail expansion.
Wargame rules. Zoomed in on 1:1 man, small unit tactics.

Miniatures optional, but if you want to play OD&D like a miniature skirmish game you have all the rules you need to do it with.

Cunt.

Quote from: Doom;887429Again, my bad, not blanket immunity to all damage, and you're probably right there might well be some obscure edge case to get around it...but let's focus on the actual point.

Focusing on the real issues, all the "cool powers" stack up to make the game a slog to play after a fistful of levels.

Does that not also apply to oldschool D&D? Wasn't it Stoneskin from Unearthed Arcana that totally negates a certain number of attacks?

QuoteI'll now mention how the Battlerager (un-patched) was basically unstoppable, period, at low levels, just to give the obsessives something to do.

Granted, but they did indeed errata that.
And any responsible DM would spot the problem and talk to the player about it. Or employ the use of stunlocking and/or surge-draining monsters to even the playing field a little bit.
As they should in any edition of D&D.

Quote from: Cave Bear;887433Does that not also apply to oldschool D&D? Wasn't it Stoneskin from Unearthed Arcana that totally negates a certain number of attacks?

.

Uh...one of these is not like the other. I'll let someone else try to explain it, though.

Quote from: Doom;887437Uh...one of these is not like the other. I'll let someone else try to explain it, though.

If you're not going to make your own arguments then why do you even bother to comment?!

Quote from: Daztur;887063First of all establish what kind of game it is. It's about mythic Beowulf-level heroes who get in big climatic battles, not Cugel pulling a heist in Fantasy Fucking Vietnam.

Y'know, this is definitely not my default style of play. BUT!, considering how high D&D 4e goes, 30+ lvls and like 5+ tiers (IIRC), it is a surprisingly robust chassis for such a style of play. This might actually be the best way to pitch the game so as to bring everyone's assumptions onto the same page.

Other games can do the low level grunt or street level crack team, but few could hit the epic tiers without collapse. As much as I hate the scaling, and think bounded accuracy should be returned, this might be one instance where 4e is better. "Wanna start as a mythic hero and scrape demigod status?" is a solid pitch to narrow the scope of play and manage player expectations.

Still not something I am interested in playing. But it would have warned me off of the table earlier, to the benefit of all involved.

Quote from: Daztur;887063Then cut away all of the unneeded detritus that's left over from 3ed bloat. Feats, skills, out of combat DCs, the whole lot. Gone. No fucking +1 bonus for fighting ice creatures while picking your nose. Combine healing surges and action points into one bennie (call it hero points or something more creative). Have these hero points be pretty rare.

I completely agree. If you're going to switch into full Tactics Skirmish mode, do so and drop the legacy material. Less 3e modifier, feats, PrCs, and tactics cruft the better. There's little to salvage from there that won't get in the way of a Good Saga.

I also applaud the idea Healing Surge + Action Points as a single pool. Might I suggest Healing Surges get replaced by Hit Dice, and Action Points replaced by Tier Level? That way no one can game chargen for more, and everyone can quickly tabulate their "Hero Point" pool. Starting 1st lvl has 2 Hero Points (1 for lvl, 1 for tier); 6th lvl has 8 Hero Points (6 for lvl, 2 for tier).

Quote from: Daztur;887063Then focus in on the stuff that makes 4ed unique: the big stacks of powers. Burn AEDU with fire and have all powers either be at-will ones or ones that you need to spend a hero point to use. Have these powers that cost hero points generally have conditions tied to them like:
-Last stand: can only use if it's your last hero point.
-Vengeance: can only use if it's to hit the guy who just downed your buddy.
-Riposte: can only use if it's to hit the guy that just bloodied you.
etc. etc. etc. and have them do interesting larger than life stuff out of Hercules/Beowulf/Gilgamesh not the pretty weaksauce stuff we got for a lot of martial powers in 4ed.

This turns Hero Points into "that second bar below Hit Points" (Mana, Skill, Power, Hero, whatever,) which is fine. Eliminating AEDU cruft also frees up analysis paralysis while also keeping things to quick heroic description. Tying finishing flourishes to battlefield conditions also retires powers to major battle tipping points, instead of front-loaded spam.

Quote from: Daztur;887063The main point of that would be to shift the use of hero points (which replace dalies) to the END of combat from the START to make for better pacing. Big combats would often start with the monsters kicking the PCs' shit in and then the PCs using some hero point-fueled powers to turn the tables.

I like this for pacing, tied to major battlefield tipping points. The challenge would be designing them so that they are harder to repeatedly setup — like bouncing in and out of being bloodied with healing. If you standardize the triggers, like the above three used for every class, but with different effects, you could keep consistency while quickly checking power level.

Quote from: Daztur;887063For healing have it be a lot like in 4ed except that hero points are a lot rarer than the action points + dailies + healing surges they're replacing something like this:
-Second wind: shitty hero point to hit point conversion.
-Healing: expert healer heals you, good hero point to hit point conversion.
-Bed rest: sleep for a night, best hero point to hit point conversion.

Solid power tiering concept for refreshing. Should be similarly done in power tiers as battlefield tipping points. That way a minor battlefield shift (first crit? first Hit Die of dmg lost?) can open Fighter's Second Wind or Cleric's ranged Healing Word.

Perhaps use Tipping Points as a Trigger category for the three major game facets: Combat, Explore, Social?

Triggers like, Sleighted Encounter or Awoke Guardian Curiosity, could be moments to use Hero Points. As long as Hero Points are appropriately powerful to the trigger — essentially mostly a palliative (not a coup de grace) to ameliorate the loss — this could work well. Then it affects your last condition that to succeed you want to use as little Hero Points as possible, and thus bring a strategic element back into the tactics.

Quote from: Daztur;887063Then have it really hard to get hero points back, just camping out in Mirkwood wouldn't cut it, you'd need to spend a few days in Rivendell at peace with hippy elves dancing around singing.

So more than an 8 hour Long Rest. Something like a Hero Point a day carousing and spreading your name amongst civilization? Could be extremely useful in both campaign pacing and encouranging poking around in stable societal areas. Perhaps you could have your Tier Hero Points refresh per Long Rest, but keep Class Level Hero Points as 1 pt per day of civilized frolic. This way higher tiers can jump back into adventure in a moments notice, yet still not be at their best until they partied for a few weeks.

Quote from: Daztur;887063For out of combat stuff, no skills and no stupid skill challenges. For human-level stuff PCs can do it automatically or with a simple ability check. For superhuman stuff they'd need to use a power. There'd be powers like giving infinite endurance for a period of time (like Beowulf swimming across the sea in his armor) or massive lifting capacity for one feat (like Hercules) and these would generally cost a hero point to use. Stuff like hollow leg (PC can drink a few barrels of wine and not get drunk) would be fun too.

Dealing with out of combat challenges would generally be about being cunning enough to get past big challenges while spending as few hero points on your big supernatural abilities as possible.

Think that'd hold together relatively well for that sort of game, if a very different one from D&D. Thoughts?

Yes, I really like the return to Skills as Professional Level from 2e NWPs. Less rolling the better, even moreso than take 20 or the like. Only when really taxed should they bother with a skill roll.

And, returning to my Hero Points during Explore and Social, it seems we are on the same page here. Again, the easiest way would be to tier things to various contextual critical conditions, and then provide Hero Point Powers as a class variable solution. And again, this would similarly tax the same Hero Point pool so as to return a Strategic element along with the Tactical element; you only get so many Boo-Boo Erasers, so try to solve as much as possible without going nova.

How would you like to go from here? I'm thinking of starting with at least 3 Tipping Points per Combat, Explore, Social, and then giving each class its equivalent Heroic Reaponse.

3 Prospective Tipping Points per Game Facet

Combat

1. Bloodied
2. Downed Ally/Self
3. Last Stand/Sacrifice

Explore

1. Evidence/Slip Up
2. Exposed
3. Cornered

Social

1. Faux Pas
2. Gross Breach
3. Grave Insult

Hmm... Next to try to fill the four main classes. I'll start with the Fighter.

Fighter

Combat

1. Bloodied. Second Wind.
2. Downed Ally/Self. Vengeance.
3. Last Stand. ... Blade Whirlwind.

Explore

1. Evidence/Slip Up. Olympian Athletics. (STR check Expertise?)
2. Exposed. Olympian Endurance. (CON check Expertise?)
3. Cornered. In the Zone. (As the two above plus Lucky STR & CON saves?)

Social

1. Faux Pas. Forgiveable Brute (let slide due to martial skill; possible attraction by target).
2. Gross Breach. Minor Debt of Honor/Gentleman's Duel.
3. Grave Insult. Appeasement Geas.

Quote from: Cave Bear;887422Shit taste detected.

Don't lick yourself?

:idunno:

Quote from: jeff37923;887396For the curious, 4E gets shit upon because it was a miniatures skirmish game sold as a role-playing game and shoved down people's throats as D&D. No crime if you like it, but it is not as suited to being a RPG as it is a tabletop computer wargame simulator.

I honestly do think there is very little wrong with the system when you use it for what it is designed for, stuff like Blood Bowl or Space Hulk. The OP and most of the posters here agree that 4E was too focused on combat or else this thread about "How to fix 4E" would not exist because it didn't need fixing to be a RPG.

You can keep saying this all your want jeffy, still wont make it true.