Quote from: Spinachcat;886699Crypts & Things for Conan? AS&SH for Conan?

What are the pros/cons for each?

Also, what are the pros/cons for either vs. 2D20 Conan?

I've never read AS&SH, but C&T would do Conan very well.

I own, have played, and like both games.  

C&T is rules lite and based on Swords and Wizardry core.  The rules changes are significant though it is still clearly D&D.  There are Sanity Rules, Combat Styles, and excellent sorcery rules that make magic suitably dangerous and corrupting.  It includes a setting which is so-so IMHO, but it is only a few pages long.  

The rules changes in C&T stand out to me as a near perfect example of how to adapt OD&D to a particular genre.  

AS&SH is a beautiful Boxed Set with gamescience dice, three spiral bound books a fold out map, and great art and layout.  It is based on 1e D&D (Osric I suppose).  It clarifies, organizes and streamlines a lot of of the original DMG and PH and it is very well-written.  Classes and races are new but the game is not much different from 1e.  Other than chargen and a few small things like thief skills, it's close to a clone with greater clarity and consistency than the original rules.  The setting is pretty involved and, IMO, is strongly influenced by Clark Ashton Smith.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat

Crypts & Things for Conan? AS&SH for Conan?

Definitely C&T for Conan.  

The vibe for ASSH is more CAS or Lovecraft.

QuoteOriginally Posted by JeremyR

OTOH, the adventures for AS&SH are really good, while the C&Ts ones not so much.

Agreed on both counts.

Blood of the Dragon for C&T was bland and left me uninspired.  

OTOH, Charnel Crypt of the Sightless Serpent for AS&SH was very evocative.  It's short, meant for perhaps an evening, easily adaptable, and a little gritty and spooky.  Jeff (AS&SH) has a few others that I haven't picked up and he is running a kickstarter as we speak for another.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1806106772/hyperborea-the-mystery-at-port-greely

Any one known when, and how, 2ed C&T will be available?

Quote from: Madprofessor;886725Definitely C&T for Conan.

Why?

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;886716I've never read AS&SH, but C&T would do Conan very well.

Why?

Quote from: Teodrik;886729Any one known when, and how, 2ed C&T will be available?

The book's draft has been available for backers (so glad I backed this) since the Kickstarted started, and it has seen a few updates over the months.

The last update said the final PDF will be out for backers (and I guess everyone else to purchase) by the end of this month.

Sheesh, Spinachcat, asking me to justify my opinions is just a step too far .  I thought people are just supposed to accept my word as truth

Before I start - two caveats to my previous enthusiasm:

1) C&T is best for cinematic comic book style Conan.  Its grittier than bog standard D&D but not as gritty as REH. (by the way, I realize that "gritty" is one of those now meaningless buzzwords - hopefully you know what I mean).

2) I personally do not think that a class/level game is the best way to approach swords and sorcery, pretty much no matter how well it is modified.  I think skill based games like  BRP, RQ, GURPS and the like are better fit.  

That said, C&T does a great job of D&D Conan because:

1) The sorcery system.  Spells are divided into Black, Grey, and White varieties.  Spellcasting does psychological and/or physical damage to the caster depending on the severity of the spell.  Spellcasters are potentially powerful but they are playing with fire.  

2) A simple sanity system that works like HP based on the Wisdom stat works well to convey the horror elements and the mind-warping of sorcery.

3) A simple resolution mechanic based on the S&W saving throw and modified by class and character background.  It's not quite a skill system but it adds some breadth to the 4 classes (fighter, barbarian, thief and sorcerer).

4) Combat is a little deadlier for several reasons.  HD are all D6 based  (D6-1 to D6 +2) kinda like white box, but weapon damage is higher using polyhedrals.  (Mongoose did something similar increasing weapon damage compared to character HP).  Damage is changed with HP representing fatigue and CON points representing physical damage.  Finally, fighters get a boost with fighting styles that make them deadlier in combat than bog standard D&D.

5) Of course, non-genre stuff (like demi-humans, turning undead, etc.) is removed.  No healing or resurrection.  No Alignments. There are some rules on magic items too essentially removing them except for ancient evil artifacts and such (for which there are examples).

6) Optional rules for XP, Chaos (Moorcock style), Passions, and some random tables of S&S themed stuff.

7) It's rules lite and easy to tweek, it's also still fully compatible with other OSR/D&D stuff (if you know what your doing).

Those are the major points as I remember them, (I am in the process of moving and don't have my books so someone might be able to fact check me).

Quote from: Madprofessor;886772Sheesh, Spinachcat, asking me to justify my opinions is just a step too far .

After the 2D20 Conan wankfest, I am going to grill you like a steak!!

Good luck with your move!

Quote from: Madprofessor;8867721) C&T is best for cinematic comic book style Conan.  Its grittier than bog standard D&D but not as gritty as REH. (by the way, I realize that "gritty" is one of those now meaningless buzzwords - hopefully you know what I mean).

Assume I don't. What do YOU mean by gritty?

How does "cinematic comic book Conan" differ from REH in your opinion?

As Modiphius is promoting their 2D20 Conan as the REH RPG, what do you see lacking in C&T that would make it more Marvel Conan or Arnold Conan compared to REH Conan?

Quote from: Madprofessor;886772That said, C&T does a great job of D&D Conan because:

Interesting. Sounds like some of the S&W house rules that we were bouncing around forums a few years ago. Glad somebody codified them.

How does the Fighter differ from the Barbarian in C&T?

Quote from: Madprofessor;886772Damage is changed with HP representing fatigue and CON points representing physical damage.

How do we know when my sword cuts the monster versus just making it sleepy?

We had that problem in SpyCraft which had Vitality and Wounds, and unless you scored a crit or they ran out of Vitality, you didn't actually wound the target with your fully auto machinegun with armor piercing explosive rounds.

Quote from: Madprofessor;886772No healing or resurrection.

No healing? Just natural healing? Do you quickly regain Fatigue?

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
After the 2D20 Conan wankfest, I am going to grill you like a steak!!

Wankfest!?! Oh, for cryin out loud.  Wankfest. (grumbles, and mutters under his breath) Damn vegi cat. I had significant... oh nevermind.

 

QuoteAssume I don't. What do YOU mean by gritty?

I mean that the imaginary world operates on a mortal scale where the laws of physics and human limitations govern almost all of the action, and the player expectations of what can be accomplished. The exceptions would be the rare punctuation of the supernatural. In a gritty game, mundane things like six inches of steel in the gut, exposure to the elements, or falling off a cliff have mortal implications, and the supernatural is terrifying because it breaks those mortal boundaries and is thus beyond reason. Fear, I think has a lot to do with it.  

In a gritty game, heroism is unexpected and comes from human frailty and the courage to face it.  In a cinematic game, heroism is expected and comes primarily either from super-human abilities or from dramatic structure.

QuoteHow does "cinematic comic book Conan" differ from REH in your opinion?

To my mind REH stories are "gritty" as I described above.  True, the protagonist is an exceptionally gifted and talented mortal and of course, he never dies in the stories, but Conan never takes death for granted.  For example, the thrill of combat that he experiences is the joy of life when death is so near.  Conan is no coward but he will run when the odds are plainly stacked against him or when the rewards of risk are not high enough.  He genuinely fears the supernatural because it is beyond his control and understanding.  He doesn't die because REH needed to sell stories, but it never feels contrived, and the sense of mortal heroism is never lost.

OTOH, Sprauge de Camp novels, comic books, Conan movies (actually the first Arnold Movie is pretty gritty), and other pop-culture Conans are more like the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. There is adventure aplenty, good stories, and imaginative concepts, but because A) the action is regularly super-human and B) characters do not fear their own mortality or the physical world (often because the only thing that can kill them is the appropriate dramatic moment).

QuoteAs Modiphius is promoting their 2D20 Conan as the REH RPG, what do you see lacking in C&T that would make it more Marvel Conan or Arnold Conan compared to REH Conan?

As far as gaming goes there is no right or wrong about either of the above two styles.  However, to capture the essence of REH's Conan in an RPG, the element of mortal heroism,overcoming human fears and limitations (grittiness), is essential IMHO.  D&D isn't very good at grittiness no matter how you slice it so C&T is still more cinematic than REH. I won't speculate on 2d20's grittiness lest I am accused of wanking.
 

Sheesh - I hope the steak is well-done enough for you.

QuoteHow does the Fighter differ from the Barbarian in C&T?

I honestly can't remember much about the Barbarian class except that it was based on a late '70s White Dwarf article.  The Fighter picked fighting styles every few levels kinda like feats except there were only ten or so to choose from.

QuoteHow do we know when my sword cuts the monster versus just making it sleepy?

I think PCs and important NPCs treat CON as Meat Points and HP as fatigue, while everyone else (monsters and minions) used HP as Meat Points, but I don't have the book in front of me so don't quote me on it.

QuoteNo healing? Just natural healing? Do you quickly regain Fatigue?

I should have said no magical healing.  Fatigue healed quickly. CON healed slowly. I seem to recall that carousing or a stiff drink would heal fatigue (PC HP)

Quote from: Madprofessor;886891Sheesh - I hope the steak is well-done enough for you.

THAT was awesome and VERY helpful! Thank you!

C&T is also very easy to tinker with and modify. You can take out or add in all kinds of sub-systems and house rules without breaking the game.

Well, fuck me with Arnold's Biceps, I'm actually intrigued for both systems now.

Damn you all!  I can't afford to spend cash!  Seriously, I had a hardware failure, and that means a lean month for the next two or three.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Christopher Brady
Well, fuck me with Arnold's Biceps, I'm actually intrigued for both systems now.

Ha!

Seriously, don't break the bank, but... both of these are small businesses run by great guys (well, as far my conversations with them have gone) so I am sure they would appreciate the business, if you get the chance.

Quote from: Madprofessor;887236Ha!

Seriously, don't break the bank, but... both of these are small businesses run by great guys (well, as far my conversations with them have gone) so I am sure they would appreciate the business, if you get the chance.

Well, given that C&T 2e is not out yet is giving me a bit of a reprieve, but...  The BOTH sound intriguing.  Makes me wonder how much I can tinker with both.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Christopher Brady
Well, given that C&T 2e is not out yet is giving me a bit of a reprieve, but... The BOTH sound intriguing. Makes me wonder how much I can tinker with both.

If I had to make a choice...

I hate to say this, but as much as I like AS&SH, it is a game that I can live without, and if I was in a cash pinch, it might not be my first choice.  It's a very pretty game, especially for a small press, but for me it is not a "must have" unless you are a big Clark Ashton Smith fan (which I am) or a big fan of 1e D&D (which I am not).

C&T (1st edition) is not a pretty game but the rules are worth the price if you like both D&D and Swords and Sorcery.  Of hundreds of games in my collection, it's one of a handful that gets played.  I would wait for 2e though.