Yeah, it makes the whole hacker thing feel more like a secondary character, kinda like a Medic NPC waiting on the sidelines for his turn to help heal some PCs.

An extensive Cyberspace rules system would work well if all the PCs were expected to interact with it as a group, the same way that PCs are expected to interact as a group when mass combat gets going.

"If you can't handle the fight (and/or cyberspace), don't show up for this mission/adventure..."

Primarily thinking of Ghost in the Shell S.A.C. where all/most members of Section 9 are shown seamlessly hack a system and fight some dudes, with room for specializations, of course. I could see something like that working. Cyberspace exploration/hostile system hacking does not need to be anything different than real world exploration/mass combat.

I think a decent GM (but especially a decent game system) could make a hacker character work within the party without all the "waiting around for their turn" thing.

The Matrix as it currently works in Shadowrun is kind of silly, as is most of Shadowrun, but it does at least give a good reason for the decker to come along with the party on the mission and maybe invest in a few extra skills on the side rather being overspecialised.

The "everyone sits around waiting for the hack to finish" problem could be avoided if you let all the other players play the hacker's various little AI programs they use to help them accomplish their hacks.

Quote from: Warthur;885268The "everyone sits around waiting for the hack to finish" problem could be avoided if you let all the other players play the hacker's various little AI programs they use to help them accomplish their hacks.

Exactly what I would do! And that's also true of most scenes where other PCs aren't necessarily present, I usually have the players handle minor NPCs, etc.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;885249Yeah, it makes the whole hacker thing feel more like a secondary character, kinda like a Medic NPC waiting on the sidelines for his turn to help heal some PCs.

An extensive Cyberspace rules system would work well if all the PCs were expected to interact with it as a group, the same way that PCs are expected to interact as a group when mass combat gets going.

"If you can't handle the fight (and/or cyberspace), don't show up for this mission/adventure..."

Primarily thinking of Ghost in the Shell S.A.C. where all/most members of Section 9 are shown seamlessly hack a system and fight some dudes, with room for specializations, of course. I could see something like that working. Cyberspace exploration/hostile system hacking does not need to be anything different than real world exploration/mass combat.

I think a decent GM (but especially a decent game system) could make a hacker character work within the party without all the "waiting around for their turn" thing.

on that point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAPDFwHjUf8

Quote from: kosmos1214;885341on that point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAPDFwHjUf8

And that is why wireless systems are stupid.  And why most smart execs and 'runners are fully wired.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885365And that is why wireless systems are stupid.  And why most smart execs and 'runners are fully wired.

The funny thing is that most wireless signals are easily scrambled once an attack has been detected, and a wired hack is more reliable and comes with a slew of other advantages. At least that's how I'd run things.

Hi there

(inaugural post on this site actually)
See back in the day I looked at Shadowrun and said "ugh fantasy elements in Cyberpunk WHYYYYYYYYY" and left it well alone. Unfortunately as the years have gone on I've wanted to run more cyberpunk stuff, but R Talsorian has not updated Cyberpunk 2020 so it feels very much like "Yesterdays Tomorrow".

SR5 meanwhile has been updated which is why I have decided to use if for the Cult of Tea and Dice Cyberpunk campaign. I'm ignoring the huge amount of background the game has picked up over the years and replacing my own, but I've allowed the fantasy races (resulting in a minotaur rigger!). It's OK, Im not making a big deal about the fantasy side of things.

One game I would suggest for a Cyberpunk fix however is KURO, J-horror meets Cyberpunk, by way of Psycho Pass and Tokyo Ghoul.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;885249I think a decent GM (but especially a decent game system) could make a hacker character work within the party without all the "waiting around for their turn" thing.

Fates Worse Than Death already does that:). In it, hacking a single system might well be the goal of tonight's adventure.
I've run it enough to be able to confirm that everyone gets to contribute, depending on what their talents are;).

Not to derail...

but I picked up Interface Zero 2.0 for Savage Worlds. It's a goddamn work of art. I daresay it might be one of the best modern cyberpunk books I've ever read.

It's like Shadowrun without any of the magic stuff. But scaled up to include some space-opera elements with a dash of Mechwarrior.

I liked what I read of Interface Zero 2.0, but I'm not a fan of Savage Worlds nor FATE.  Hopefully it'll see some other iteration some day.

I don't equate Fate to Savage Worlds, though I can see how some might. They share some DNA... but in play, at least when I've played it, it played pretty straight up as a standard RPG with little "meta-gamey" rules.

I was surprised at how cinematic it felt. But I don't pretend to be an expert on the system either. I plan on rectifying that soon as I'm considering it running it for a good bit once my 5e game winds down.

... unless I get "The Call" - then it's CP2020 time.

But having said that. Interface Zero has a *tremendous* amount of material in it that is just saliva-inducing. I'm a little surprised it's not been brought up in the thread, or in others for that matter. In fact... I'll post another thread on it.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;885424The funny thing is that most wireless signals are easily scrambled once an attack has been detected, and a wired hack is more reliable and comes with a slew of other advantages. At least that's how I'd run things.

As someone who has been in the tech industry and been playing with computer parts for about 30 odd years, hacking a wireless signal is still easier than a wired connection.

See, the big issue that very few people seem to grasp, even after having it explained to them, is that a wireless device is never actually turned off.  Even when it is turned off.

A wireless device is always broadcasting a low level signal to the various networks around them at all times, letting them know that there's a device in the area.  This is why, whenever you boot up your phone, you're connected already and ready to surf/call whatever it is you need to do.

Take a PC for example, there's always at least a few seconds as everything boots up, detects the various hardware and internet connection.

A phone device once it lights up, it has everything available on the spot.  There's no boot up sequence, because there's nothing to boot up.  It's all been in standby mode.

Quote from: tenbones;885590But having said that. Interface Zero has a *tremendous* amount of material in it that is just saliva-inducing. I'm a little surprised it's not been brought up in the thread, or in others for that matter. In fact... I'll post another thread on it.

To make this mildly more related to the thread, if there's a game I'd nominate to get more attention and try to replace shadowrun with it, it'd be Interface Zero.

In large part because they've intentionally designed it to be modular, while there is a lore, it's not massively self referential. The items given to you are self contained elements you can use to build your cyberpunk out of. And I know savage worlds backwards so that's nice.

Quote from: MrHurst;885732To make this mildly more related to the thread, if there's a game I'd nominate to get more attention and try to replace shadowrun with it, it'd be Interface Zero.

In large part because they've intentionally designed it to be modular, while there is a lore, it's not massively self referential. The items given to you are self contained elements you can use to build your cyberpunk out of. And I know savage worlds backwards so that's nice.

I *think* (because I don't have enough experience with the system yet) you could easily hack Interface Zero w/ Fantasy Companion and do Shadowrun a solid facsimile *AT MINIMUM*. I suspect it might even be better.

Edit: AAaaand of course someone did it.: https://wrathofzombie.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/the-savage-worlds-of-shadowrun-hack/

Quote from: tenbones;885759I *think* (because I don't have enough experience with the system yet) you could easily hack Interface Zero w/ Fantasy Companion and do Shadowrun a solid facsimile *AT MINIMUM*. I suspect it might even be better.

Edit: AAaaand of course someone did it.: https://wrathofzombie.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/the-savage-worlds-of-shadowrun-hack/

I preferred my version of Shadowrun using Savage Worlds to any version of Shadowrun I've run or played (1-3rd in play, though I own the rest).  There are some other Shadowrun conversions out there (a google search should pick them up), but none of them quite felt right for me.