To elaborate here:

1) John Wick's writing style and attitude are annoying, and often full of hyperbole.

2) 12-year-old John Wick was foolish and insensitive and immature. He was 12 years old, though, so on that I give him a break. Adult players shouldn't behave like that, obviously, but they can still be annoyed and disappointed in the module.

3) The main point that I agree with him on is that Tomb of Horrors is a sucky module. Having played through it when I was a teenager, I was struck by the utter stupidity not only of most of the traps - but also of the implicit advice in how to run them like the countdown.

4) In 1978, this was one of the seminal modules for fledgling AD&D, and set a really bad example for kids running stuff.

Quote from: TristramEvans;882309Sure,something along the lines of:

WARNING: If you can't play a game of King's Quest without throwing a tantrum then this module isn't for you.

I haven't played King's Quest, but my impression is that it follows most adventure games in handling death. That is, if you die, it is fairly easy to re-spawn and get back to where you started from. You start play again immediately, and it takes at most a few minutes to get back to where you started from.

By contrast, AD&D is a vastly different game. You don't immediately re-spawn. The rest of the players go on without you, while you have to go sit out of play rolling up a new character. In general, you won't be able to rejoin the adventure until they leave the dungeon, and you've permanently lost all the XP and items you've accumulated which given a high-level module may have taken months of play or more.

Quote from: jhkim;882314I haven't played King's Quest, but my impression is that it follows most adventure games in handling death. That is, if you die, it is fairly easy to re-spawn and get back to where you started from. You start play again immediately, and it takes at most a few minutes to get back to where you started from.

Your impression is wrong, based on modern videogames

The reactions to that blog post are really hilarious. It's like reading opinionated reviews of a review, which in fact is more of an anecdotal reaction to the module than an actual review of the module. Fun stuff!

Quote from: TristramEvans;882316Your impression is wrong, based on modern videogames

Fair enough, although I play almost no video games of any sort, or computer games these days. Most adventure games that I remember from my youth in the 80s had a save game feature where you could go back to a saved point, rather than having to go through everything from the start. If King's Quest does make you always restart from scratch, then it's a fair comparison.

Since a lot of people would not have played King's Quest, I'd phrase it in descriptive terms rather than via comparison.

Quote from: jhkim;882319Since a lot of people would not have played King's Quest, I'd phrase it in descriptive terms rather than via comparison.

It was a multi-million dollar series contemporary of The Tomb of Horrors, one of the most popular video game series of the 80s at the time ToH was released. People had different expectations from games and back then. We are talking about a 30 year old module, not something released today for an audience to whom the phrase "fantasy f-ing vietnam" is used as an old school pejorative.

Quote from: AsenRG;882263Right, I just thought of another question for those with the module at hand:).
Can you move the Sphere of Annihilation away, if you determine what it is? I think I could find some market for one of those, and with GP=XP, that might be a relatively easy way to get out of the ToH with some XP to your name;)!

If I recall correctly is was fixed in place. But its been a long time. I can tell you that trying to gain control of one was pretty much begging for your magic user to be erased since you had to check every round you were trying to move it. I was I believe 12th level and so thats a mere 50% chance +6% more for 16 INT. At best I could have tried to move it out of the mouth so as to see what was behind it.

Quote from: Omega;882328If I recall correctly is was fixed in place. But its been a long time. I can tell you that trying to gain control of one was pretty much begging for your magic user to be erased since you had to check every round you were trying to move it. I was I believe 12th level and so thats a mere 50% chance +6% more for 16 INT. At best I could have tried to move it out of the mouth so as to see what was behind it.

What if you had tried to chisel the whole head out of the wall? Would you still have had to make a save roll?

Quote from: jhkim;882211However, that doesn't mean that they also shouldn't properly conclude that Tomb of Horrors sucks as a module.

To my mind, doesn't work for the average 12 year old no more defines "sucks as a module" than does not to my taste. The module wasn't to John Wick's taste. Tough. It never sounded like it would be to my taste either.

Plan 9 is kind of funny. In an Ed Wood kind of too bad to be believed way.

QuoteAs far as I can tell, you're doing exactly what 12-year-old John Wick did - calling the players stupid for this, because you know what the encounter is.

No it's not exactly the same.

   1) I'm not the DM who prepared my players to expect that leaping into a demon's mouth one after another was a wise, safe, intelligent plan.

2) I'm not the DM who then bought, read, and ran a deadly module for a bunch of unprepared 12-year olds.

3) I'm not laughing at any real 12-year olds, to their faces, after killing off their favorite characters with the module I enticed them to play.

4) I'm not blaming mean old Gary Gygax for making me behave like a dick to the kids I called my friends back when I was 12 years old.

And to be clear, I don't really think all those players were as stupid as John Wick says they were. Everything else in his anecdote is exaggerated, wildly improbable, or just plain wrong, so I see no reason to assume all the players blithely jumped into the demon's mouth like John Wick says.

QuoteHowever, if you don't have any foreknowledge or context, then I can easily see this happening.

The original D&D rules provided context that would have indicated this was an unwise course of action. Perhaps nothing else John Wick ever ran for his players had traps that killed, items that cursed, pools with bizarre or unpleasant magical effects, or save vs death or petrification, and so exercising a modicum of caution was completely unknown to his players. That isn't like any dungeon experience I recall ever seeing, but certainly it's possible if that's how John Wick and his friends played D&D.

QuoteWhen I played this in my teens, I remember distinctly the stupid fucking countdown killing half the party, and losing at least two people to the mouth - though I don't think it was a TPK.

The example of the countdown you gave seems to be an error on the part of the DM. Starting a countdown clock before clearly describing what the PCs can initially see, hear, smell, taste, etc. is lame. Refusing to describe the scene and instead continuing the countdown is even more lame. Starting a countdown clock even after clearly describing the scene may still be harsh. Certainly if the DM has never before required players to quickly make any decisions, then yeah that's harsh. It's less harsh in tournament play since you have to get a winner somehow and attrition is at least as good a way as a beauty contest or popularity contest.

On the other hand, if the scene is clearly set and described and if the players are used to making decisions quickly a countdown is a reasonable thing to include in play. I occasionally use countdowns as a way of dealing with dithering in combat or emergencies. I do agree that springing it by surprise is harsh. Springing it by surprise and without properly describing the scene is poor DM technique. How much the rules are supposed to try to protect players from poor DM technique is, to some extent, also a matter of taste.

QuoteThe problem is that once someone is sucked in, players assume that there is something through the hole, and try to get the PC out. For example, players might easily think that something grabbed in the darkness grabbed the PC and pulled them through - a far more common trope in dungeons than sphere of annihilation.

Something sort of like that occurred in the LotR where the Watcher in the Pool outside of Moria grabs Frodo. But it was clear that an underwater monster was grabbing Frodo. I can't ever recall something grabbing a PC and pulling him out of sight in old D&D. Not to say it never happened, just I don't recall ever seeing it happen. But trapped and cursed statuary, decorations, pools, and fountains were pretty common. I believe they were included in examples of play or sample items in the original D&D rules and supplements. I know we all knew about their existence back in the 1970s and we never personally interacted with the folks in Lake Geneva. So we must have got the tropes from somewhere.

QuoteHowever, some games and modules are bad.

Too harsh for 12-year olds and not to my taste aren't good definitions of a bad module. Missing descriptions or sections and inconsistent or self contradictory descriptions or sections are bad. But that isn't what we are talking about here. Here we are talking about a particular style of dungeon. Some people may find it fun some may not. Just like some people may find teleporting rooms, trap door slides down to a more dangerous level, and rotating rooms fun and some may not. Neither are good or bad in any objective sense than vanilla, strawberry, chocolate, or tutti-fruit-ti are good or bad.

QuoteAt the very least, Tomb of Horrors should be more clearly labelled as being full of stupid and arbitrary death traps where you have to guess the correct answer based on no information. Just saying it's not for hack-and-slashers doesn't cut it.

I'm all for clear labeling.

But if we take John Wick at his word, at the age of 12 he would have bought anything with the name D&D on it no matter what the label said. And nothing he wrote here or elsewhere leads me to believe anything a label said would have stopped 12-year old John from from running his shiny new module. And killing his friends PCs. And then laughing at them.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882329What if you had tried to chisel the whole head out of the wall? Would you still have had to make a save roll?

Youd end up with a head with a empty mouth. The sphere would stay put. It could be that it was a basic sphere and any magic user could have tried moving it. And it only moves if a magic user concentrates on moving it.

Its an utterly passive trap really. Moreso because its out in the open more or less. Its like the Deck of Many Things. Totally harmless as long as you leave it alone.

To my mind, ToH was not as much fun as White Plume Mountain or Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan.  I liked it better than ToEE, which seemed to me just a slog, but other people dug that. I liked it a lot better than Vecna Lives! (which I bought, threw across the room in disgust, and never have used).

The "deadly gantlet" shtick seemed to fit the billing, one horrible horror after another all right. That gave it a lot of replay value in what someone has pointed out is a video-game kind of way, players' memories serving a new batch of characters (a chance the tournament contenders did not have).

It was a change from the usual, and quite understandably a game many people would prefer to pass up. But it brought others of us hours of excitement, and I'm pretty sure there are a few modules (and quite a few Dungeon Magazine scenarios) that bored just about everyone including the people who designed them.

To me, the first question that comes to mind when trying to plan a logical course of action in an imaginary setting is: does the setting MAKE SENSE? Is it based in logical principles that can be discerned?

So does Tomb of Horrors make sense? Is there an in setting explanation for why it exists and how it functions?

From what I understand it doesn't seem like Gygax had any particular concerns about the underlying rationale for the Tomb's existence. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So, next, if logical examination proves untrustworthy, the next question that comes to mind is: what does the creator of this setting seem to want us to do?

So in this case, I think it is entirely understandable to think, "Ah ha! We are supposed to go through this magical portal in the same spirit of adventure that led us to enter a dungeon called the Tomb of Horrors in the first place!"

And indeed, I can imagine a scenario where going into the demon mouth WAS the right course, and people are snickering about how stupid these kids were to NOT go through the demon mouth which was obviously a portal to some important place framed as a demon mouth to scare people off.

In fact, unless you personally KNEW Gary Gygax and how his mind worked (like if he was your older brother for instance) I think it would be entirely reasonable to think something like "What kind of asshole would put something like a portal that instantly killed anyone who went through it into a dungeon? This stuff is supposed to be FUN not ha ha gotcha dumbass!"

I mean, I kind of doubt that Wick had been previously running the kind of campaign that had focused on snailpace dungeon crawls where you had to tap everything within ten feet with a pole to ward off gleeful GM malice.

Then again, I also suspect that even the childhood part of the story is largely BS... But I still think my comments above hold true.

Quote from: Manzanaro;882359Is it based in logical principles that can be discerned?

Isn't the premise that an evil wizard-lich created it?

QuoteSo, next, if logical examination proves untrustworthy, the next question that comes to mind is: what does the creator of this setting seem to want us to do?

Its called the Tomb of Horrors not Challenge for Heroes, so I'm guessing he wants us to temporarily assuage his ennui with our futile struggles and painful deaths.

QuoteAnd indeed, I can imagine a scenario where going into the demon mouth WAS the right course

In the words of Han Solo, "I can imagine quite a bit." That I can imagine it doesn't make it the best, most plausible, wisest, or safest first step to take when faced with a giant demon mouth as one possible exit from a room.

QuoteIn fact, unless you personally KNEW Gary Gygax and how his mind worked (like if he was your older brother for instance) I think it would be entirely reasonable to think something like "What kind of asshole would put something like a portal that instantly killed anyone who went through it into a dungeon?

The same sort of person who thought things like save vs. death or petrification, cursed items, magic pools, black mold, green slime, ochre jelly, those transparent cube thingies that dissolve flesh, Ropers, Piercers, Wights, Wraiths, and Spectres, rotating rooms, trap door slides to a deadly lower level, and teleporters were fun things to put in a dungeon. D&D was from the beginning filled with examples of "gotcha dumbass!" monsters, magic, and mad architecture.

QuoteThen again, I also suspect that even the childhood part of the story is largely BS.

I've got to agree with you here.

Quote from: Manzanaro;882359Then again, I also suspect that even the childhood part of the story is largely BS...

So Wick made up a story that made him look like a complete ass?

Quote from: TristramEvans;882368So Wick made up a story that made him look like a complete ass?

Well he is known for a love of painful drama. I don't think he would hesitate for a second in making himself look like an ass if he thought it enhanced his story. Plus I am thinking he might have thought he would look sympathetic.

He is a wanna be community  actor after all...