Quote from: MrHurst;881955And if said fairy is cybered to the gills and running an APC through a corporate office to express his irritation for being stuffed on payment for a delivery it isn't? I've had some fun with the concept, imagine the short guy from highschool with a chip on his should, halve his size, double the ego and plug him into a small army of drones and vehicles. Makes for funny results.

Here's what shadowrun does really well, it takes those themes from cyberpunk and projects them on a canvas that people don't personally associate with. Folks get a lot less defensive about issues such as poverty, inequality and exploitation when it's elves exploiting orcs and you can roll around in a whole host of things that would cause some folks heads to explode if you spoke about it in direct terms. When you have orks who have half the human life span and elves with double you can discuss inequality in the starkest of terms without much of anyone being able to raise a complaint.

Even magic is reduced as a means to an end, a poor kid with magic can either get himself owned by a corporation or use it as an edge to work the street. There is no wish spell in shadowrun.

The dragons or ancient elves who most resemble anything objectionable from Tolkien, now have to compete with every jackass with a missile launcher and a few of them have lost that bet. They're just another set of powers to undermine or be stomped on by. Lofwry for instance, great dragon, personally runs a megacorp, finances shadowruns occasionally to amuse himself and often sees it as a game. Not one he's going to let you win, but a past time for himself. He's adapted. It's the ones who didn't adapt to the cyberpunk world and it's power structures that ate a missile, and the world as a whole moved on.

The fantasy heightens the themes as it brings an even greater contrast with core conceits. At least as it's been used. Though the gamey approach of this latest edition has turned me off, and I've been making snide comments about 'technology is magic', the setting itself is hardly Tolkien fantasy.

Beautiful post. Bravo. :hatsoff:

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881903Shadowrun is science fantasy:

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic, and fantasy creatures co-exist."

http://shadowrun.gamepedia.com/Shadowrun_Returns

"Shadowrun Returns is a science fantasy turn based tactical role-playing game developed and self-published by Harebrained Schemes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun

"Shadowrun is a science fantasy tabletop role-playing game set in a near-future fictional universe in which cybernetics, magic and fantasy creatures co-exist. It combines genres of cyberpunk, urban fantasy and crime, with occasional elements of conspiracy fiction, horror and detective fiction"

I am not interested in the Coles notes version of a definition.  I am not some Mom or dad looking up scary books on the internet so I can find out what my troubled teen is reading.  

Appeal to authority is the weakest firm of argument.  I and everyone else on this form know more about the subject matter, than the writers of the pathetic, plebeian, pre-chewed drivel you smeared across this discussion.  I will shatter your coraperate molds, and trample the simple assembly line truths that come from them.  I will forge my own truth, find my own definitive core of the genera, I will glean the deep truths from the opinions of like minded nerds, forge it from the casualties of our flame wars!

  Sorry got carried away.  


If the core of cyber punk is about how technology our strips our humanity.  I think there is a kick ass cyber punk story about the human kings being given rings by Suron and losing their humanity.  Becoming ring wraiths.  There is another one about Suarmon using gears and wheels to improve orcs and replacing humans with them.

As an aside, I bought a copy of the Apocalype World-powered RPG The Sprawl and it is all kinds of fucking sweet.

I may start another thread on it, or run a Hangouts game if anyone is interested.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;882139As an aside, I bought a copy of the Apocalype World-powered RPG The Sprawl and it is all kinds of fucking sweet.

I may start another thread on it, or run a Hangouts game if anyone is interested.

So the sex moves got a good upgrade, eh?

Quote from: CRKrueger;882144So the sex moves got a good upgrade, eh?

No sex moves.  If I have one complaint, the pre-game History questions are kind of weak.

It's much more matter of fact than Apocalypse World, but probably as evocative as Saga of the Northlanders, which is high praise from me.

EDIT:  Now I see what you did.  That's what I get for posting while I watch TV.  I suck.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;882139As an aside, I bought a copy of the Apocalype World-powered RPG The Sprawl and it is all kinds of fucking sweet.

I may start another thread on it, or run a Hangouts game if anyone is interested.

If I may ask:  Was it you who coined the (what I'm going to para)phrase:  
"Transhumanism is about how technology makes us better.  Cyberpunk is about how it won't."

If not, do you know who it was back on TBP?  I want to attribute it to the right person, because something so simply genius (and in my personal perception accurate) needs to be acknowledged.

In my opinion.

Quote from: Omega;881971So, uh, you admit that Cyberpunk is fantasy? Right?

Only if you admit that D&D 4e did D&D better than any version of D&D.

Quote from: Headless;882129I am not interested in the Coles notes version of a definition.  I am not some Mom or dad looking up scary books on the internet so I can find out what my troubled teen is reading.  

Appeal to authority is the weakest firm of argument.  I and everyone else on this form know more about the subject matter, than the writers of the pathetic, plebeian, pre-chewed drivel you smeared across this discussion.  I will shatter your coraperate molds, and trample the simple assembly line truths that come from them.  I will forge my own truth, find my own definitive core of the genera, I will glean the deep truths from the opinions of like minded nerds, forge it from the casualties of our flame wars!

  Sorry got carried away.  

Um, maybe read the thread first? Haha

I put that up because someone said that SR billed itself as cyberpunk, therefore it is cyberpunk. The game's own wiki sites bills it as sci-fantasy, so that was my point.

QuoteIf the core of cyber punk is about how technology our strips our humanity.  I think there is a kick ass cyber punk story about the human kings being given rings by Suron and losing their humanity.  Becoming ring wraiths.  There is another one about Suarmon using gears and wheels to improve orcs and replacing humans with them.

Quote from: MrHurst;881955Here's what shadowrun does really well, it takes those themes from cyberpunk and projects them on a canvas that people don't personally associate with. Folks get a lot less defensive about issues such as poverty, inequality and exploitation when it's elves exploiting orcs and you can roll around in a whole host of things that would cause some folks heads to explode if you spoke about it in direct terms. When you have orks who have half the human life span and elves with double you can discuss inequality in the starkest of terms without much of anyone being able to raise a complaint.

Even magic is reduced as a means to an end, a poor kid with magic can either get himself owned by a corporation or use it as an edge to work the street. There is no wish spell in shadowrun.



The fantasy heightens the themes as it brings an even greater contrast with core conceits. At least as it's been used. Though the gamey approach of this latest edition has turned me off, and I've been making snide comments about 'technology is magic', the setting itself is hardly Tolkien fantasy.

Magic is not high technology. If you have to use magic to highlight tropes and themes present in cyberpunk, then you're essentially addressing tropes and themes via a different genre. Call it cyberfantasy or sci fantasy. Or call it cyberpunk, if you want, but you'd be wrong.  

You can look back up thread as to why I think this is, but I'll summarize again:

The term cyberpunk as coined and later appropriated by Sterling does not include magic in it. You can look at the mirrorshades intro or any number of writings, and it's very clearly about technology, not magic. I've already posted about how Gibson feels about that. Their opinions carry weight being as they helped shape the genre, and that Sterling himself appropriated the portmanteau to describe the stories he was collecting. Again: it's all about technology, not about magic, and even less about tolkienish high fantasy or tolkienish anything. Once you add those things as part of your base, you're creating a new thing.

http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/mirrorshades_preface.html

And it's not only w hat they  have to say, it's what the canon literature itself portrays.

If you feel like none of that carries any weight, then what can I say, except that I disagree with your base assumptions on the matter and that we will never see eye to eye on the subject.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881915I don't care the amount of padding this thread is getting because of the self-righteous butthurt it's getting.  Can we please keep it on topic?  There's an SR thread you can take all the exception to that's on the front page right now!  In fact the title has your dreaded "Oh NOES!  They're calling Shadowrun CYBERPUNK!  HOW COULD THEY! THE PHILISTINES!"  Go play there.

Well some of us aren't saying that. SR certainly covers genre themes. I think SR is to the cyberpunk-genre what D&D is to the fantasy-"genre". It's its own thing.

"D&D Fantasy" as discussed in many other threads, is its own brand of fantasy with its own conceits. In many ways, to me, SR poses a more interesting questions on the other side of the fantasy/sci-fi fence (which might be more appropriate for another thread) and that is: What is D&D-fantasy like extrapolated outwards towards modernity? SR scratches an interesting potential surface of this idea.

As for using fantasy iconography and memes inserted into a cyberpunk-setting as a means to "better contrast" the themes of the cyberpunk-genre, in order to ostensibly allow a point of entry for those sensitive to such topics? I say... whatever floats your boat. But it's just putting greasepaint on an already ugly face.

It's like coddling a kid to get them to swallow a pill they otherwise wouldn't like. And hey, that's cool. I'd rather just look at SR as it's own thing. I think arguments of taking cyberpunk-themes and slapping a coat of fantasy on it and saying "see! any genre could do this!" is pretty reductionist to the conceits of genres themselves. I might even go so far as to say it's arguing for arguing's sake.

I could easily recreate Spelljammer to reflect all the conceits of 2001, or Foundation and rant over the Internet that those books aren't sci-fi, using this line of thinking. Setting matters. How much it matters is up to you.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;882269Only if you admit that D&D 4e did D&D better than any version of D&D.

I admit that 4e D&D Gamma World did 4e D&D better than 4e D&D. (But apocalyptically fails at being Gamma World.). :confused:

@azzorthconlechi

QuoteMagic is not technology

I think that's where we disagree.  If it is the surface that makes it cyber punk, than no you can't have elves.  If it's a theme than you can.  I think the high Sidhe could reside in cyber space very will.  With the twisted logic gates, and compellings and cumpulsions, and the inability to lie.  

I think there is a thematic similarity between Tolkin and cyber punk.  Tolkin in set in fallen times, with an oppressive central authority trying to take over being incomptantly resisted by small selfish governments.  There are gifts and new technology but they all carry a terrible cost interns of humanity.

Is "wind up girl" cyber punk?  There are hardly any computers at all.  It's been said in this thread that it's the best cyber punk in years.  Is it cyber punk.  What makes it cyber punk and not shadow run?

Quote from: Future Villain Band;882146No sex moves.  If I have one complaint, the pre-game History questions are kind of weak.

It's much more matter of fact than Apocalypse World, but probably as evocative as Saga of the Northlanders, which is high praise from me.

It's Icelanders, not Northlanders. And yeah, it's the best PbtA game in my opinion too.

About this Sprawl thing, never hears of it. Please tell me more.

Quote from: .;882321I think that's where we disagree.  If it is the surface that makes it cyber punk, than no you can't have elves.  If it's a theme than you can.  

High tech is not surface stuff; it's central to what drives main themes in cyberpunk.

Quote from: .;882321I think there is a thematic similarity between Tolkin and cyber punk.  Tolkin in set in fallen times, with an oppressive central authority trying to take over being incomptantly resisted by small selfish governments.  There are gifts and new technology but they all carry a terrible cost interns of humanity.

To me that is a non point. Genres don't have monopolies on themes. You can find thematic similarities between works spanning genres. There are similarities between Frankestein and Blade Runner. It doesn't make the former cyberpunk.

Quote from: .;882321I think the high Sidhe could reside in cyber space very will.  With the twisted logic gates, and compellings and cumpulsions, and the inability to lie.  

Cyberspace isn't built on magic, is it, though? If it is, then you're no longer in the realm of sci-fi.

Quote from: .;882321Is "wind up girl" cyber punk?  There are hardly any computers at all.  It's been said in this thread that it's the best cyber punk in years.  Is it cyber punk.  What makes it cyber punk and not shadow run?

I think making a distinction between computers and high tech is splitting hairs. The question is, is the "wind up girl" powered by magic?

Quote from: Headless;882321I think that's where we disagree.  If it is the surface that makes it cyber punk, than no you can't have elves.  If it's a theme than you can.  I think the high Sidhe could reside in cyber space very will.  With the twisted logic gates, and compellings and cumpulsions, and the inability to lie.

Why not both? The very aspect about cyberpunk that partially define cyberpunk is the pop-culture tropes of the setting itself which is lodged in pop-culture of the present/near future. Hell you have gangs of people in Cyberpunk 2020 that get surgical implants to *look* like fantasy elves. Theme certainly matters in genre. Drama isn't just limited to period-pieces it's a form of storytelling. So while symbolically these things might have the same resonances, they're not necessarily the same genre.

And *yes* that's one of the things about cyberpunk in general. It's trying to figure out what people can/could/would do in a setting, but as I said earlier - the setting, the surface as you put it, it matters.

Quote from: Headless;882321I think there is a thematic similarity between Tolkin and cyber punk.  Tolkin in set in fallen times, with an oppressive central authority trying to take over being incomptantly resisted by small selfish governments.  There are gifts and new technology but they all carry a terrible cost interns of humanity.

These are not themes in Tolkien's books. They are allusions to what might happen if Sauron comes to power. Nowhere was I feeling that things were oppressive in the cyberpunk sense because it was a setting with a prelude to war, not social imbalance and de-humanization. The narrative follows the characters trying to slam-dunk the ring into a volcano. Not gain justice for anyone, or change the status-quo of medieval feudalism. I think you're reaching to prove a very flimsy point using Tolkien.

Quote from: Headless;882321Is "wind up girl" cyber punk?  There are hardly any computers at all.  It's been said in this thread that it's the best cyber punk in years.  Is it cyber punk.  What makes it cyber punk and not shadow run?

Well it's not classical cyberpunk in the Gibson-sense. But it's definitely in the ballpark. You could tell the story of Wind-up Girl in CP2020, or any of the classical genre's author's worlds. You could tell Lord of the Rings too. Where a bunch of of social misfits adventure to try and destroy the CPU of a renegade and all powerful AI, without ever mentioning magic. Would it then be called "fantasy" to you?

And this is why setting matters.

Edit: god damn you ArrozConLeche... you're saying the same shit I am.

Remember though, it's not as if Shadowrun actually replaces any of that tech with magic.  It has all the tech, the corps, the whatever Cyberpunk 2020 has.

Pointed ears and reading minds - If I say Vulcan, science, if I say Elf, magic?
What if I say Homo Sapiens Nobilis?
Is it still science when Spock talks to the actual God Apollo?
Is Traveller magic because Zhodani?