Quote from: Baulderstone;882093Of all the ways that people died in the Tomb of Horrors, I never heard of an actual group that TPKd by climbing into the mouth. Those stories always happened to some other group somewhere else. It was like a D&D urban legend. Yet both times Wick ran/played, of all the ways the group could have died, that exact same urban legend played out. It just sets off my BS detector.

I'm just going by the gaming community I was part of back then. Have other people here found that to be a common way that whole groups died?

I could buy it if there wasn't an alternate exit which, whilst foreboding, at least isn't a freaking devil mouth right next to Big Green, but yeah, it does seem odd.

I can buy individuals going in because they end up second-guessing themselves. ("Obviously the lich would plant a fake set of clues to guide people away from the real treasure, so we should embrace green as often as possible!"/"Obviously the lich would put an evil aura on the real exit to convince people to go through the trapped exit!") I can buy people rushing in as a group because they decided to follow the leader and didn't wait around. I don't buy the stories where people go through one by one with long periods of waiting in between. You'd think SOMEONE would think to check the other exit under such circumstances.

Quote from: Baulderstone;882093Have other people here found that to be a common way that whole groups died?

No.

It's a freakin' DEMON HEAD.

Quote from: Baulderstone;882093I'm just going by the gaming community I was part of back then. Have other people here found that to be a common way that whole groups died?

No.

But then I've never played with an entire party of morons who would jump in a demon mouth. I have played a few times long ago, with one guy who would do dumb shit like that for giggles or something. We thought it was stupid at the time and we tried not to be in the same room when his PC started pressing buttons and levers and such. People who did harebrained stuff like that tended to be unmercifully mocked for their behavior...and yet no one threw a punch at anyone. :hmm:

The mockery never did stop that guy. He seemed to get some sort of fun out of his wacky risk taking hi-jinx.

Yes, it's a freakin' DEMON HEAD... which in the minds of some would make it the perfect disguise for the real exit. Besides, the original illustration looks far too friendly to be a demon.

Look, I'm not arguing that the Tomb is absolutely 100% unfair, just that there's good reasons why someone might think the demon head is a good idea based on the information presented to them. It isn't automatically a stupid idea. Jumping through without testing it out a little is the bad move, but that's a different story.

(Incidentally, how is it supposed to work? Does it annihilate you once you are entirely inside, or does it annihilate stuff as soon as that stuff passes the event horizon? Because in the latter case unless someone is going in head-first I would tend to give them a saving throw to realise that their leg or other extremity is gone and pull back suddenly, and if someone was going in head first the rest of their group would immediately know something was wrong because the back portion of their body would drop to the ground stone dead.)

Quote from: Warthur;882092Either the published module should have specifically said "You really shouldn't let people who haven't actually played D&D to high levels play this", or it should have relied less on assuming highly-experienced players. Running a tournament that assumes that people have a reasonable level of D&D experience makes sense because the point is to designate a winner, but that comes back to the point that the module doesn't provide any explanation of how tournament play using the Tomb was intended to work.

Nonsense.  The entire "Legends and Rumors" section repeats over and over again how this high-level evil undead built an elaborate deathtrap so he could gloat over adventurers' deaths.

If the players don't believe this, that's their problem.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;882104Nonsense.  The entire "Legends and Rumors" section repeats over and over again how this high-level evil undead built an elaborate deathtrap so he could gloat over adventurers' deaths.

If the players don't believe this, that's their problem.

Heh, I'd forgot that.

On one hand, in a lot of groups there was this general agreement (unspoken or explicit) that if the DM had paid money to buy a module to run this evening, you go on the gosh-darn adventure; in an awful lot of groups if your PC decided "actually, we should give this whole thing a pass" that'd be seen as an utter douche move.

Maybe, in retrospect, the module should have had a line along the lines of saying "some PCs might be put off by the rumours in question, for good reason, so let their players play one of the pregens instead".

On the other hand, there's only so much a publisher can do in this regard, and the blame would be just as much on the DM in a case where they said "Well, you have to take your PC to the dungeon, otherwise you don't get to play this evening".

If you're going to run a campaign where the PCs are expected to accept the adventure on offer that evening - as lots of people do - it's kind of dickish to make the mandatory adventure a hyper-fatal one. On the other hand, if you are running a sandbox campaign with a range of adventure opportunities available of varying difficulties, including something absolutely killer on the menu is fair enough. I've never known a 12 year old to run such an open sandbox campaign, though - at that age, in my experience, kids tend to follow the "this is this evening's adventure, there is no alternative" model.

Quote from: Warthur;882105Heh, I'd forgot that.

On one hand, in a lot of groups there was this general agreement (unspoken or explicit) that if the DM had paid money to buy a module to run this evening, you go on the gosh-darn adventure; in an awful lot of groups if your PC decided "actually, we should give this whole thing a pass" that'd be seen as an utter douche move.

In my area, groups hadn't really congealed yet. We had a big D&D club at school. People would show up with characters and there would be a few people running adventures, either bought modules or homebrew. You just sort of jumped in wherever. It wasn't until after a few years that my best friends an I retreated to our own private group that met at my house and ran actual, coherent campaigns.

Not having ever run a module, I cannot answer to that.

But I know that both Ernie and Rob Kuntz teleported out at some point.  Ernie told me two years ago he never actually made it to the end.  Rob said that as the demi lich started to materialized, he grabbed as much treasure as he could and also teleported out.

Of course this was when "teleport" transported one person, so the rest of your party would be well and truly fucked.

I don't really LIKE Tomb of Horrors, you understand; I just get tired of some people's constant whining about it, instead of a simple "Well, that's not to my taste."

Quote from: Warthur;882092Either the published module should have specifically said "You really shouldn't let people who haven't actually played D&D to high levels play this", or it should have relied less on assuming highly-experienced players. Running a tournament that assumes that people have a reasonable level of D&D experience makes sense because the point is to designate a winner, but that comes back to the point that the module doesn't provide any explanation of how tournament play using the Tomb was intended to work.

If you need that much hand-holding to figure it out, then you should at least be bright enough to recognize that you are as a DM incompetent to run a scenario full of stuff you're clueless about.  If you're not even competent to recognize your own incompetence, then you're not ready to be a DM.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;882072I've never liked the idea of D&D tournaments, frankly.  I've always found the notion inane.  (This is not the same as a convention game.  Tournaments are specifically to find a WINNER.)  But D&D players went to GenCon and saw the historical miniatures tournaments and their prizes, and they wanted prizes too.

SO how the hell do you figure out who is the "best" D&D player in four hours?

The easy way is "the last one to die."

This explains much about tournament modules.

I generally agree. I would point out that a kid in 1978 who bought the module may well not know that this is what "tournament module" means.

I don't claim that there is no way to get through the module. I am saying that there is a bunch of stupid shit in there - particularly like the countdown I cited, or a bunch of others. Some places where you have to open a door to get through, and some places where opening the door is a complete mistake.

The devil mouth is annoying because (1) there is nothing to figure out - the only thing to do is ignore it and walk away; (2) when characters disappear, there is no way to know what happened to them.

Quote from: Bren;881988I would think that the expectation is that seasoned adventurers will be smart enough to first try to (a) detect evil, (b) detect magic, or (and this is the cheapest, easiest, and most likely action)(c) stick one end of a 10' pole or other item into the demon mouth before jumping head first inside. When only 5' of pole comes back out, the seasoned adventurer will then decline to be the first person to jump inside just to see what happens next.

That's not how a sphere of annihilation works. If it was, then an adventurer who touched the mouth would at most lose the end of a finger when they tried to touch it and got an ouchie. The actual effect is that any matter that touches the sphere is sucked in and destroyed. In my experience, some interpretations read this as everything touching it (i.e. pole and person) are sucked in at once; by other interpretations, only the pole would be sucked in.

Note that the mouth itself doesn't detect as evil or magic - the whole area does.

I'd say it's incautious for someone to touch the mouth, but given a bunch of curious 12-year-olds, someone is likely to try it. The problem then is that the person disappears. That puts the party in a dilemma. How do they find out what happened to the character? There is no way, and the party just has to give up and move on rather than trying to find a way to get them back.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;882056You see a gigantic demon face and don't "Detect Evil?"

You detect evil and don't toss an iron spike at it and watch it disappear?

You don't "Locate Object" on the iron spike to see where it is?

You're an idiot.

If a 14 year old kid can figure that out first time, anybody can.

Dude. Everyone makes fucking mistakes - particularly when you're 12 years old and have no clues about it. Even if you happen to have a cleric with Locate Object memorized, that just means that the object isn't within 200 feet or so. There is no confirmation that it has been destroyed rather than teleported.

If you're sitting around yelling at 12-year-olds about how they're idiots, then I'd say that you're an idiot more than they are.

Quote from: jhkim;882124If you're sitting around yelling at 12-year-olds about how they're idiots, then I'd say that you're an idiot more than they are.

I'll bet he isn't. In any case, their antisocial behavior is their own fault, perhaps in part their parents'; but it's not Mr. Gygax's fault.

Quote from: jhkim;882124Dude. Everyone makes fucking mistakes - particularly when you're 12 years old and have no clues about it.

Yes. Exactly. Everyone makes mistakes. That means the ONLY intelligent thing to do is to take it for granted that mistakes will be made. Therefore, wise actions are not those that limit exposure to mistakes themselves--indeed, minor mistakes can provide valuable information; rather wise actions are those that limit exposure to the effects of mistakes. The distinction is substantial.

This is all regardless of situation and thus all regardless of what clues may or may not be present. Doing something--anything--that cannot be undone is never a good choice for the first thing to try. A lack of clues is never an excuse.

Quote from: jhkim;882124That's not how a sphere of annihilation works. If it was, then an adventurer who touched the mouth would at most lose the end of a finger when they tried to touch it and got an ouchie. The actual effect is that any matter that touches the sphere is sucked in and destroyed. In my experience, some interpretations read this as everything touching it (i.e. pole and person) are sucked in at once; by other interpretations, only the pole would be sucked in.

Well if anything touching it is sucked in, what keeps the demon mouth and statue in place?

And in either case, the players should have some clue that there is a problem.

   "Hey that demon mouth sucked the 10' pole out of my hand into the mouth and it disappeared."
or

   "Hey that demon mouth sucked in the 10' pole and Ralph and they both disappeared."

The next reasonable step when inside a trap filled dungeon is not to leap into the mouth after the pole or after the pole and Ralph.

QuoteNote that the mouth itself doesn't detect as evil or magic - the whole area does.

Which should be a vague clue that caution in that area might be wise and that leaping headfirst into a demon's mouth might not be the best way to get out of the dungeon alive.

QuoteI'd say it's incautious for someone to touch the mouth, but given a bunch of curious 12-year-olds, someone is likely to try it. The problem then is that the person disappears. That puts the party in a dilemma. How do they find out what happened to the character? There is no way, and the party just has to give up and move on rather than trying to find a way to get them back.

There are one or two spells in D&D that might give one a clue as to the fate of their missing comrade. Trying one of those before leaping headfirst into the demon's mouth after Ralph would seem minimally prudent.

But if 12-year old cannot restrain their curiosity to leap first, then they learn a lesson about the dangers of a trap filled, deadly dungeon. Maybe.

I'm not saying the Tomb of Horrors is my cup of tea. Far the contrary, but I really can't imagine ever thinking that leaping into a demon's mouth is on the list of the first twenty things to try to get out of a deadly, trap filled dungeon alive. So I'm a bit skeptical that it twice went down the way Wick says it went down both because it seems improbable, but also because everything else in Wick's anecdote is also improbable.

But in any case, Gary Gygax didn't make 12-year old John Wick laugh in his friends' faces after running the module that killed all their PCs. The life lesson to be learned from that experience is not "Gary Gygax was a mean old man." It was, "Laughing at other people's unhappiness, unhappiness that you helped cause is a dick move that may make people think 'Hey that John, he's not really my friend. He's a dick!"'

Quote from: thedungeondelver;882066Unless, you know, you read the text in the module.  The part where it says that it's a tournament module.  And the part where it says it's a thinking module, not for hack and slay, and if you're not willing to use your brains to figure the module out you're gonna have a bad time.

All that is in the module text.  That's not required of a "TSR fanboy", that's basic reading skills.

Terrific.  Now tell me the part where I, as a player, am supposed to read through the module before the DM runs it.

But let's leave that aside, and acknowledge Warthur's further comment and go on.  TOH a "thinking" module?  Please.  It's full of those "step on the wrong square/touch the wrong lever/fail to go through the exhausting iron spike etc routine at every step/die horribly" bits.  The only thinking that will help you is to reason out that the various rumors and warnings may well be on target, and never enter at all.

Quote from: Bren;882148Well if anything touching it is sucked in, what keeps the demon mouth and statue in place?

If I recall my old D&D lore, Spheres of Annihilation are weightless. If one is hovering inside the mouth, not touching the sides, it isn't going to move unless someone comes and moves it around using magic.