Quote from: Christopher Brady;881817Expediency.  A mook, minion, goon, goombah, schmuck whatever you called them, they are not meant to be a major threat to a hero.  Can they get lucky and mess one up?  Yes.  I had one guy, some random mugger with a knife, almost murder the Batman analog in a game.



Yeah, after being the top dog for Superhero games for at least what, two decades now, you'd think that the latest edition of HERO would introduce the main feature of superheroes when facing monolithic and evil organizations.

And the main reason I am FOR Mook Rules is because I mostly play superhero games, D&D and M&M 3e.

In fairness, there are some suggestions under "Speeding up Combat" that are essentially Mob/Thug rules in a few books but they're not formalized.

Once you step into the world of the Superhero, you're in a place frequently where genre conventions are large and in charge, and superheros usually are some form of more powerful being and are not strictly human.

When Mook rules are in place in human vs. human or at least mortal vs. mortal conflict, there's absolutely zero connection to the setting, unless you posit that "PC Level Beings", Wildcards or whatever, are those chosen by higher powers to be pawns in their doings and so are effectively some form of superhero.  

You could even accuse Conan of being that if you go with some kind of Kull-Conan-Cormac reincarnated eternal champion like character.  Random Hyborian PC group X doesn't cut it.

For a non-supers game, that's an awful lot of verisimilitude you're giving up for expediency.

For me, Mook or Mob rules don't reduce my verisimilitude at all. It's strictly a mechanical convenience to more expediently resolve certain actions, most games have allot of them. it doesn't damage my immersion  or suspension of disbelief that gm might roll 5 times or even 1 for 40 person unit instead of 40 times. It bothers me less than than the idea that "higher level" characters have a greater chance of surviving some of the same things even there isn't really an "in setting physical difference that makes them more durable.
Their hit points are just an abstraction of various factors but its abstraction that's not my cuppa.

If Mobs are weaker and it fits the setting/genre that heroes, villains, Titled characters or whatever can run roughshod over their lessers en mass. I'm okay with that as genre emulation. A setting or game based on 80s action movies, for instance.

If mobs are stronger than individual characters and it fits the setting genre (gritty "realism" perhaps) then it works for as the presence of Mob motivates the choice to run or find some others means to deal with it for those that make such choices based more on "game" level information.

Mook rules are usually optional or easy to ignore if you want. I'd guess this Conan game will be similar. What games have Mob/Mook/Thug rules hardwired in where if they're not your thing you can't write up the, say, squad of troops and run them normally?

MHRP/Cortex seems to come closest to that. The more relevant question is will they be optional/GM discretion in the this Conan game?

Quote from: Nexus;881860For me, Mook or Mob rules don't reduce my verisimilitude at all. It's strictly a mechanical convenience to more expediently resolve certain actions, most games have allot of them. it doesn't damage my immersion  or suspension of disbelief that gm might roll 5 times or even 1 for 40 person unit instead of 40 times. It bothers me less than than the idea that "higher level" characters have a greater chance of surviving some of the same things even there isn't really an "in setting physical difference that makes them more durable.
Their hit points are just an abstraction of various factors but its abstraction that's not my cuppa.

I haven't really played Level/Hit Point games for quite a while now, so choosing to not deal with all those abstractions anymore, why would I choose to replace them with others?

Quote from: Nexus;881860If Mobs are weaker and it fits the setting/genre that heroes, villains, Titled characters or whatever can run roughshod over their lessers en mass. I'm okay with that as genre emulation. A setting or game based on 80s action movies, for instance.

Roleplaying in literary genres isn't something I do outside of oneshots, either.

Quote from: Nexus;881860If mobs are stronger than individual characters and it fits the setting genre (gritty "realism" perhaps) then it works for as the presence of Mob motivates the choice to run or find some others means to deal with it for those that make such choices based more on "game" level information.

Aside from speed and speed alone, there's not a single threat or role held by mobs that wouldn't be done better by actual NPCs (unless it's something like a literal swarm of bees or piranhas or something.)

Quote from: Nexus;881860Mook rules are usually optional or easy to ignore if you want. I'd guess this Conan game will be similar. What games have Mob/Mook/Thug rules hardwired in where if they're not your thing you can't write up the, say, squad of troops and run them normally?

Well, as I said upthread...

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768But, it doesn't matter.  Simply make each Mook an actual human and not a literary speedbump and then you have adventures worth telling stories about.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881866I haven't really played Level/Hit Point games for quite a while now, so choosing to not deal with all those abstractions anymore, why would I choose to replace them with others?

Roleplaying in literary genres isn't something I do outside of oneshots, either.

Aside from speed and speed alone, there's not a single threat or role held by mobs that wouldn't be done better by actual NPCs (unless it's something like a literal swarm of bees or piranhas or something.)

Well, as I said upthread...

They are actual humans. They're just represented differently mechanically. From my perspective I'm not sure what you mean by "perform the role better" or "actual NPC" In setting, Mobs are exactly the same as anyone else or more as they're defined. They just use somewhat different mechanics. I feel that for representing large numbers of attackers, yeah, mob rules do work better than using the game's standard combatant rule, faster, less work intensive and produces results that are more inline with the setting. For me those are significant pluses.

Unless the gm is going to make individual, slightly different character sheets for every guard in, say a 20 person unit (and I imagine there are some that do) there is some level of abstraction and simplification going on. Everyone in a unit isn't a xerox of the person next to them. It all about what you're comfortable with.

But I'm not trying to convince or convert you. As I said I understand that some people don't enjoy those sorts of rules. I'm explaining my opinion and perspective.

That and I am curious if the "Mook rules" in this Conan game will be rules for lesser foes, mob rules, a combination and if they're hardwired in and if they are how that works.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881821Public Domain does not work the same the world over - the laws are different between the UK and USA. Something PD in US is not necessarily public domain in the UK. Many people get confused over this.

Except that the supposed owners ARE using the American version of it.  And they are using lawyers to bludgeon everyone else into submission.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;881908Except that the supposed owners ARE using the American version of it.  And they are using lawyers to bludgeon everyone else into submission.

Pretty much why I'm skipping this Conan RPG.  It should all be in PD in the U.S. by now, and this sort of "claim-jumping" gives me a sour taste.

Quote from: DMK;881911Pretty much why I'm skipping this Conan RPG.  It should all be in PD in the U.S. by now, and this sort of "claim-jumping" gives me a sour taste.

Again, according to the sources of information I was able to get on the internet about Copyright laws, but I am not a lawyer, nor was I able to find anything dealing with the Howard estate (but that might have been my word search incompetence), it should have become Public Domain in 1963-64, based on his death in 1936.

Also, in UK, because they have a 70 year copyright ownership, then it would have been released, 10 years ago in 2006.  BUT because Paradox has more money, they CAN illegally hold on to Conan of Cimmeria, by using the U.S. Copyright Revision of 1976.  Despite that it became public domain 8-9 years before that revision.

Unless of course, there's been some legal grandfathering that I've not been able to dig up.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768If they are lower skilled, you use the existing rules and simply make them not as good.  There's no need for "Main characters and Big Bad Evil guys" work this way, "Lieutenants and Right Hand Men work this way", "Minions and lesser forms of life work this way", "Mobs of Minions" work this way.

That's highly system-dependent.  In Mythras (the game formerly known as RuneQuest 6), for example, if a Minion from the mob makes a successful attack roll against you and you don't successfully parry, he gets to choose a Special Effect to inflict along with his damage, such as Choose Location (to hit an unarmored area), Disarm, or Trip Opponent.  However, his chance to hit is completely independent of your skill and even attempting to parry costs you an Action Point, which you get 2-3 of per turn.

Because of this, five Picts will slice up Conan (even if it's Chainmail Conan instead of Fur Loincloth Conan) nearly as easily as they would Cyrus McCivvie with no combat training whatsoever, unless Conan parries.  But the Picts have 10 AP between them, while Conan has only 3 AP to parry with.  Assuming the Picts have better than a 30% chance to hit, he can't parry all their attacks even if he foregoes offense and spends all his AP parrying... so he's still screwed.  Numbers kill.

So Mythras has optional rules for "Rabble", which are essentially mook rules and stipulate (among other things) that they may not cause Special Effects.  If the Picts are Rabble, Chainmail Conan can now take their attacks on his armor and get on with the business of being Conan and eviscerating them without getting tripped or disarmed every round.

The other way of making Conan able to deal with five Picts at once would be to jack up his stats so that he also has 10 AP, but that means a DEX+INT in the 109-120 range (1 AP per 12 DEX+INT, rounded up) in a system where human stats are 3-18.  Personally, I prefer allowing the Rabble rule over allowing stats on the order of triple human maximum.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768BTW, are Hit Dice supposed to be some form of Mook Rule?  Is that where the "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" part came from?  That's a pretty big stretch.

My guess is that he was referring to the "fighters get one attack per level against opponents of 1 HD or less" rule.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881821The funny thing I've seen is people referring to it as being to narrative, but also too crunchy, so there's definitely some confusion and perhaps that's the description in the Quickstart.

I don't see a contradiction there.  Although narrative systems are more likely to be rules-light, "narrative" and "crunchy" are not antonyms, or even opposed to each other.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881821What I will promise is we'll discuss with the team what options we have to make the system in some way friendlier to those who are opposed to certain aspects. There has been talk of a system toolkit which proposes ways of changing some elements of the system or how to hack it easily. So maybe something like that is a first step in the direction.

Good to hear it - thanks!

Hi folks here's a combat example we just posted in the latest Kickstarter update:

Conan Combat Example

Participants

Three player characters:

Edric - Grizzled Veteran
Adelstan - Young Knight
Amala - Blade for Hire

NPCs:

2 Elite Pict Warriors
2 mobs of 3 Pict Warriors
Environment

A large hill, with a signal fire on the hilltop (the fire grants the player characters 2 dice of Morale Soak); the north face is rough and difficult to climb (Hindrance, Average D1 Athletics test), while the south face is a clear and easy slope. Around it, a river bank to the north, a dirt road to the west, and woodland to the south and east (the woodland provides 4 dice of Cover Soak). There are currently six points of Doom in the pool, and the player characters have two Fortune each.

The Picts are approaching the player characters on the hilltop in two groups, each consisting of one Elite Pict Warrior and a mob of Pict Warriors. One group have just forded the river and are sneaking in from the river bank. The others are skulking through the woodland to the south. The Picts to the south begin their ambush, seeking to distract the player characters from their kin by the river. The Elite Pict Warrior attempts a Stealth test in a Struggle against the player characters' Observation, with the mob of warriors assisting. Edric takes the lead here, with Adelstan and Amala providing assistance.

The Elite Pict rolls his Stealth test, with a single d20 assisting from the mob behind him; 9 and 12 from the Elite, 8 from the mob's assistance, for 3 successes. As this is a normal Struggle, all tests are Simple D0, so that's three Momentum. The player characters roll in response – 2d20 for Edric, 1d20 each from the others. 5 and 16 for Edric, and 4 each from the other two; four successes, so four Momentum.

The player characters spot the incoming Picts, and set to their grim work. They have one Momentum left over, which gets saved into the group's pool – their keen eyes have given them a slight edge.

First Round

Edric goes to shoot the Elite Pict he can see, and the Pict chooses to try and dodge the hastily-loosed arrow, spending a point from Doom to do this. The Pict is still at the bottom of the hill, at Long range, so the test is Average D1. Edric spends the Momentum in the group's pool for an extra d20, and makes his attack: 2, 3, and 19, for three successes, which means two Momentum. The Elite Pict rolls to dodge, spending another Doom to add a bonus die of his own, but to no avail – 14, 14, and 17, all his dice fail to generate successes. Edric's attack hits home, with two Momentum left to spend. Edric rolls 2, 2, 3, 4, and 6 for damage, scoring 5 damage and ignoring one point of Soak. The Elite Pict's one point of Armour is ignored, and the Pict loses 5 Vigour, and suffers a Wound. There's not much more that Edric can do with his Momentum right now, so he saves it.

The pools are now 2 Momentum, 4 Doom. The Elite Pict in the southern group has 9 Vigour remaining and is Wounded.

Amala steps up next, and shoots into the mob behind the now-wounded Elite Pict. Same range as Edric's shot, and the mob doesn't attempt a defence reaction. She's not buying any extra dice, and rolls a 3 and a 16, scoring the one necessary success, but no Momentum of her own. She rolls 1, 1, 4 and 5 for damage, for a total of three damage – not enough to drop one of the Picts. She grabs the two points of Momentum in the pool, and adds them to her damage roll; five damage is enough to inflict a Wound on the Picts, which fells one of the mob.

The pools are now 0 Momentum, 4 Doom.

Adelstan, somewhat vainglorious and rash, strides down the hill, and calls out a challenge to the Picts. Now on the south face of the hill, he attempts a Threaten attack at the Elite Pict. He's at medium range, increasing the difficulty to Challenging D2. The Pict, defiant even while bleeding, chooses to resist, spending one Doom. Adelstan would buy some extra dice with Momentum, but Amala used it all, but he's reckless and proud, and pays two Doom to get the dice instead, rolling 4d20. He rolls 2, 5, and two 18s, scoring two successes, with no Momentum.

The Elite Pict buys an extra d20, and rolls to resist: 6, 8, and 19. Only one success, but only one needed (he's still rolling at Average D1, because the range penalty only applies to the attacker), so he's got no Momentum either. The Pict has Fortitude 1, which covers his Discipline skill, so he wins the tie, and Adelstan's threat was ineffectual.

The pools are still 0 Momentum, 4 Doom.

The Picts go next. The Picts to the north move in swiftly and quietly, unheeded by the distracted player characters – the Elite Pict, and his mob of followers all rush up the north face using their Standard Actions, but the rough terrain slows them – they're still short of the hilltop.

The remaining two Picts in the mob dash at Adelstan, hacking with their hatchets. Adelstan's blade and shield give him a decent defence, so he chooses to Parry with his Large Shield, ignoring the usual cost because of the Parrying quality on his weapons. Both sides are using Reach 2 weapons, so Guard isn't a factor here. The Picts roll 9 and 11 – two successes, which becomes one Momentum. Adelstan rolls a 1 and a 7, for three successes, which becomes two Momentum, meaning he wins. He has one Momentum remaining after the Struggle, which he saves for the group.

The wounded Elite Pict strides in, jabbing with his Spear. Adelstan goes to defend with his Shield again, paying one Doom (one less than normal for his second Parry), which the Elite Pict uses for an extra d20 immediately – relying on outnumbering to overwhelm the young knight and compensate for his injury. The Elite Pict rolls 7, 8, and 12, for three successes, or one Momentum (because the test is Challenging D2 thanks to his Wound), while Adelstan buys an extra die with Momentum and rolls 1, 4 and 7, scoring three Momentum. He triumphantly knocks the Pict's spear aside, and counter-attacks with his sword with the two remaining Momentum.

It's a difficult attack; the Pict has Guard and a longer weapon, increasing the difficulty to Challenging D2, and it's a Swift Action from Adelstan's Momentum, increasing it further to Daunting D3. It's the Elite Pict's own turn, so he can't attempt a Defence – he must've exposed himself when attacking. With undue enthusiasm, he buys two extra d20s by paying Doom, rolling 6, 7, 8, and 18: three successes, enough to hit. Adelstan rolls 2, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, and 6 with his damage dice, inflicting seven damage, reduced to six by the Elite Pict's meagre Armour, and the Elite Pict is slain.

End of the round, one Elite Pict and one Pict dead, 0 Momentum, 6 Doom.

Round 2

The Elite Pict on the north face pays one Doom to interrupt, and attempts to crest the hill, rolling a 7 and an 11 for two successes on his Average D1 Athletics test. He crests the hill successfully, and puts the Momentum into Doom. Striding into the fray, he charges Amala, thrusting his spear at her. Amala's sword and dagger both have Parrying, so she goes to Parry for free, and she's got shorter weapons, so no change to the difficulty. The Elite Pict spends a point of Doom for an extra d20, and rolls 6, 18, and 18: successful, but no Momentum. Amala spends one of her Fortune points and rolls, 1 (automatically from the Fortune point), 11, and 17, for three successes – two Momentum. She spends one to Withdraw, backing out of the fight with a quick step, and saves the other one.

1 Momentum, 6 Doom.

The rest of the Picts on the north face follow their leader, spending another Doom to interrupt, and attempt to crest the hill as well. They roll 1, 7, and 20, successfully crest the hill, putting two Momentum into Doom, but the 20 means a complication: they're momentarily disorganised, increasing the difficulty of their next test by one. They attack Edric nevertheless, relying on strength of numbers over prowess. Their hatchets and all of Edric's weapons are Reach 2, so Guard doesn't change anything here. Edric parries for free thanks to his sword and shield, and his Deflect talent. The Picts roll 8, 11, and 17 – two successes is enough, but they get no Momentum. Edric rolls 7 and 7, scoring two successes, one of which becomes Momentum so he turns aside their attacks, and banks the other Momentum.

2 Momentum, 8 Doom.

Adelstan, busy in melee with two Picts, attacks, wanting to make quick work of them. He spends a Fortune point and rolls, 1 (from the Fortune point), 9, and 15, for three successes. The Picts, as an unruly mob, don't defend meaningfully, and Adelstan hits with two Momentum. His damage roll is 2, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5 and 6, for a brutal ten damage. The first five inflict a Wound, slaying one of the Picts, leaving five more damage, which slays the second Pict. With a triumphant shout he declares his victory, and moves the Momentum to the group pool.

4 Momentum, 8 Doom.

Edric hammers into the mob, spending a Fortune point and buying two dice with Momentum. He rolls 1 (Fortune point), 2, 5, 10, and 16, scoring six successes, and thus five Momentum. His damage roll is 2, 3, 3, and 6, but he re-rolls one of the 3s with No Mercy, getting another 2 instead; this comes to a total of 5 damage, enough to slay one of the Picts. Using the kill as a distraction, he shoves through the fray (one Momentum to Withdraw), and takes a Swift Action to attack the Elite Pict with his shield (2 more Momentum spent). This is a more difficult attack (Daunting D3, due to enemy's Reach with Guard and the Swift Action), but he's still got two Momentum from his previous attack, so he uses those for extra dice. The Pict tries to dodge this, spending a point of Doom to make the attempt. Edric gets 2, 5, 7, and 13 – five successes in all, and two Momentum. The Pict, confident of dodging this hasty attack, buys only one extra d20 from Doom, and rolls 2, 12, and 17... only two successes, with only one Momentum, losing the Struggle. Edric has one Momentum left over, and rolls his damage, for a 5 and a 6. Only two damage, but they both trigger the Knockdown quality on the shield, causing the Pict to stumble backwards.

Edric deposits his last Momentum into the group pool.

3 Momentum, 6 Doom.

Amala darts back in towards the now-vulnerable Elite Pict, her dagger bared. She pauses for a moment, sizing up the downed foe with the Exploit action, emptying the Momentum pool to bolster her chances, rolling 5, 6, 6, 18, and 19 – three successes, and thus two Momentum. She buys extra damage dice with those Momentum, which come with two extra damage dice as it's an Exploit action, and uses her last Fortune point for an extra Standard Action.

With this, she attacks: the Pict has no Guard, and clutches a spear and hatchet in his hands. Choosing to use the Hatchet to defend himself, the Pict has a Reach of 2, and chooses to try and dodge this, paying a point of Doom, and three more for bonus dice. As Amala's dagger has Reach 1, she gets an extra d20 for this attack, bringing her total to 5d20. She rolls 2, 3, 7, 7, and 12, scoring five successes, for four Momentum, increasing to five Momentum because the Pict is prone. The Elite Pict rolls 4, 5, 9, 17, and 17, for three successes, or two Momentum. The Elite Pict loses the Struggle, and Amala has three Momentum remaining.

Her damage roll is 1, 3, 4, 6, and 6, and she re-rolls the 3, rolling a 2 instead. A total of 5, but the Unforgiving quality takes effect, increasing that to a 7. The Piercing 2 she gets from Exploit takes effect too, ignoring the Pict's armour entirely. The Pict – already one Vigor short due to Edric's shield bash, is now on 6 Vigour, but more importantly, he's suffered a Wound. Amala then deposits three Momentum into the group pool.

The other group of Picts now dead, it's the end of the round, and one Momentum is lost. Two Picts remaining, one Elite Pict wounded, the other dead.

2 Momentum, 2 Doom. Edric and Adelstan have one Fortune point left each.

Round 3

Desperate, the Elite Pict spends a point of Doom to interrupt, uses his minor action to Stand, and lashes out at Amala with his hatchet. Already wounded, he's facing a Challenging D2 test to attack, and Amala chooses to spend a point of Momentum making that more difficult still, as she slips into a defensive stance. She considers a parry as well, but as she hasn't yet acted, it would be her second in a row, and add to Doom, so she decides otherwise. The Pict chooses to roll an extra dice, spending the last point from Doom, rolling 4, 5 and 19, for only two successes... not enough to succeed. He lashes out wildly with his hatchet, to no avail. He drops his spear, as it can't help him at this point.

Edric presses the Elite Pict, attacking with his sword. With no Doom remaining, the Pict is cornered and unable to defend effectively, so Edric just goes with the normal dice for his attack, rolling a 3 and a 16. Two successes, turning into a hit and one Momentum. He rolls damage: 1, 1, 2, and 6, for five damage. He spends that point of Momentum on Penetration, ignoring the Pict's armour, and the five damage is enough to inflict a second, fatal, Wound on the Pict.

Adelstan strides up the hill, and lays into the other Picts, spending the group's two Momentum on extra dice. Rolling 2, 3, 11, and 19, he scores three successes, for two Momentum of his own. Rolling damage, he rolls 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, and 6, for a total of 8 damage, which is enough to slay one of the Picts, but not both of them. He spends his Momentum on two extra points of damage, bringing his total to 10, which slays both Picts. The battle is concluded, the Picts slaughtered.

[End of combat example]

Quote from: nDervish;881927That's highly system-dependent.  In Mythras (the game formerly known as RuneQuest 6), for example, if a Minion from the mob makes a successful attack roll against you and you don't successfully parry, he gets to choose a Special Effect to inflict along with his damage, such as Choose Location (to hit an unarmored area), Disarm, or Trip Opponent.  However, his chance to hit is completely independent of your skill and even attempting to parry costs you an Action Point, which you get 2-3 of per turn.

Because of this, five Picts will slice up Conan (even if it's Chainmail Conan instead of Fur Loincloth Conan) nearly as easily as they would Cyrus McCivvie with no combat training whatsoever, unless Conan parries.  But the Picts have 10 AP between them, while Conan has only 3 AP to parry with.  Assuming the Picts have better than a 30% chance to hit, he can't parry all their attacks even if he foregoes offense and spends all his AP parrying... so he's still screwed.  Numbers kill.

So Mythras has optional rules for "Rabble", which are essentially mook rules and stipulate (among other things) that they may not cause Special Effects.  If the Picts are Rabble, Chainmail Conan can now take their attacks on his armor and get on with the business of being Conan and eviscerating them without getting tripped or disarmed every round.

The other way of making Conan able to deal with five Picts at once would be to jack up his stats so that he also has 10 AP, but that means a DEX+INT in the 109-120 range (1 AP per 12 DEX+INT, rounded up) in a system where human stats are 3-18.  Personally, I prefer allowing the Rabble rule over allowing stats on the order of triple human maximum.

There is a third way to handle Conan against five Picts in RQ6/MRQ2, the Outmanoeuvre action, which allows you to limit the amount of opponents that can attack you at the same  time. With good stats (which would include a good Evade), and the Outmanoeuvre action, you can handle several foes at the same time, with no need of mook rules.

That said, I didn't remember that RQ6/MRQ2 had rules for mooks. Like CRKrueger, I dislike them so much that I have ignored them completely.

My problem with mook rules is that they rob the players of the threat and thrill of combat, when they're aware of them, and make victory and heroics over numbers kind of hollow.  

I'm not against mook rules in principal, but I think they are a poor mechanic for the Hyborian Age where the threat of cold steel is essential to maintain the feel and themes.

On a further note, I always thought the image of Conan slaying hordes of nameless foes as primarily a legacy of Frazetta rather than Howard - not that there aren't examples in REH of Conan taking on and defeating numbers - but when he does, they are desperate struggles, and as often as not he avoids or even flees large numbers of opponents.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881929A whole lot of text and numbers

As has been said before by both me and proponents of the system, it plays better than it reads. Which is as much a statement of how poorly it reads as it is an example of its supposed ease of play;)

Chris, if you keep the 2d20's and rework everything else, you might have a returning customer. That's pretty much the only way I can see your system working for me. Everyone else will probably have different suggestions - enjoy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881768To be honest the whole Mook/Minion thing doesn't make for rousing adventure, it makes for useless, cheap victories without merit.  Our 4 PCs with a total of 20 wounds, killed 5 Picts with a total of 5 wounds. Wow, aren't we awesome?  Not really, no.  You could curbstomp them and the three groups after them with your eyes closed.

This...

Quote from: Madprofessor;881942My problem with mook rules is that they rob the players of the threat and thrill of combat, when they're aware of them, and make victory and heroics over numbers kind of hollow.

... and this.

Whenever I enter to this thread and I want to make or refute a point, I see that either CRKrueger or Madprofessor already did.

Quote from: ChrisBirch;881929Hi folks here's a combat example we just posted in the latest Kickstarter update:

I like the way this combat example sounds, except for one thing, the Doom economy. I don't mind spending one point of Doom here and there, but according to the example, the GM spends and obtains Doom points all the time. That's another onus on the GM, besides the other obligations a GM has to fulfill. Isn't that distracting?