Hmm, Pundit's on to something here.  The "spirit" of Cyberpunk.  Obviously that's going to vary quite a bit.  However lets take a look at this.

Dehumanization of technology - Cyberpunk has humanity score, and people can go crazy from too much cyber.  But you can have Full Conversion Borgs, so the cyber level can get pretty high.  Oddly enough, it's the fantasy element of Shadowrun that actually models dehumanization better through Essence.  You have a set amount you can lose, and even a little has a dramatic effect.  It makes you harder to heal.  It makes it harder to cast magic.  When viewed from the astral, your cyber is dead spots in your aura.  It's literally dehumanizing.  They both did a great job of cyber as consumer culture, with ads, mall clinics, etc...

Corporate Rule - They both do a good job of this, and both had their "Corporate War" elements.  I think Shadowrun detailed it more with the Corporate Court, the AAA megacorps aka The Big Eight, and the big difference, the Extraterritoriality aspect that made the buildings of the AAAs basically embassys where they're own law was in effect.

Art and the Punk aesthetic - This one hands down goes to Shadowrun.  The cover of Cyberpunk 2020 is cool, no doubt about it, you got a Bladerunner-like scene in the background, a cool solo in the frontground, corp chick behind.  But, it's clean.  The solo's wearing Gibson battlegear and a t-shirt but his hair looks good.  These are beautiful people.  The cover for Shadowrun is three punks in a filthy alley.  They have alternative hairstyles, tattoos, leather and denim.  For all the talk of the focus on Shadowrun being focused on Heat style runs, I think Cyberpunk actually strayed more toward Heat and Shadowrun more toward "Pink Mohawk" in the games I saw in 90s SoCal.

Artifical Intelligence - Cyberpunk 2020 has nothing to match the menace and horror of Deus, an AI that poses potentially, a threat to all of humanity.  Even worse, Deus doesn't ape Skynet, and get free into the Matrix and take over the world, no Deus is locked away in the largest and richest Arcology (tying in with Corporate Rule) and the horror isn't being vaporized by a Terminator, but being taken to one of Deus' experimentation labs.

Rich vs. Poor - The Redmond and Puyallup Barrens of Seattle, the Shattergraves of Chicago, the Rox in Boston.  Cyberpunk has it's Mad Max vibe with the Nomad lands, and Night City has it's slums, but Shadowrun has places where shit got so bad people are pushing into Morlock territory.  Again, the magic aspect lets it push this a little harder, with virus-affected ghouls, toxic shamans, etc... Also in adventures where the runners encounter the rich and famous,

The Dehumanized want to feel human - Sex, Drugs, Simsense.  Cyberpunk has it, a lot of it.  Shadowrun takes it to the level we actually would, ie. omnipresent, everywhere and the focus of some adventures.

So while Cyberpunk 2020 might be closer to the actual settings of some of the mirrorshades writers, I think Shadowrun, by differing from those settings more actually allows them to hit the tropes and channel the spirit better.

BTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Hmm, Pundit's on to something here.  The "spirit" of Cyberpunk.  Obviously that's going to vary quite a bit.

Yeah, it varies. It varies to the point where there's no use refuting your points one by one:). I simply disagree with litterally every single conclusion.
Well, every single one, except perhaps art, which I simply can't be bothered to notice;).

And the best part is, if I apply your logic, both games lose to FWTD:p!

QuoteBTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post.

I get the feeling I'd disagree with it just as strongly, but at least, that's a post I'd want to read, since Shadowrun felt "barely SF" when I read it:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438So while Cyberpunk 2020 might be closer to the actual settings of some of the mirrorshades writers, I think Shadowrun, by differing from those settings more actually allows them to hit the tropes and channel the spirit better.

BTW, the fantasy part people don't like - that actually makes Shadowrun better Sci-Fi, but that's a different post.

Come on.

Take any CP story: it's a bad world out there, and heck, it's our doing. We did that, we and our gadgetry, insatiable greed and the will to break all barriers if that's what stands before us and more power.

SR? Elves did that. Dragons did that. No sireeeeee, we're "innocent", merely victims of these spirit-summoning manipulators and whatnot.

Just joking, but you get my point. In SR's setting the part about being responsible for the current state of world is somehow missing. The reality is at least partially shaped by things and entities more powerful than the mankind and therefore typical inhabitant of this world might always say "I don't wanna point fingers, but..."

CP? Whether it's greedy Corporations, army warmongers, mad scientists or gangsters... It's us. We did it.

I understand this "problem" is rarely discussed, but for me it's one of pillars of Cyberpunk - the tale of the world gone wrong courtesy of mankind's greed.

What do you think?

Quote from: AsenRG;881448Yeah, it varies. It varies to the point where there's no use refuting your points one by one:). I simply disagree with litterally every single conclusion.

Weaksauce.  Give it a go.  For example, I'd like to hear how Cyberpsychosis (which is 100% reversible though therapy) is more Dehumanizing than loss of essence which is 0% reversible.

Quote from: AsenRG;881448Well, every single one, except perhaps art, which I simply can't be bothered to notice;)

Yeah, I'm sure Bladerunner would have just as awesome with a shoestring art and special effects budget.  There have been better episodes of Outer Limits than Ex Machina, but they didn't have awesome CGI robot chicks.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881451Just joking, but you get my point. In SR's setting the part about being responsible for the current state of world is somehow missing. The reality is at least partially shaped by things and entities more powerful than the mankind and therefore typical inhabitant of this world might always say "I don't wanna point fingers, but..."

Sorry bro, you didn't read much Shadowrun.  Sure the danger of Universal Brotherhood comes from alien intelligences from another dimension/insect spirits.  Why are they getting converts though?  Because the Shadowrun world is cold, and isolating, and being a human being means nothing.  How fucked up does shit have to be for people to see a Hive Mind as a "good thing"?  Every time you encounter Insect Spirits you encounter broken people in pain.  The Invae are simply invasive predators and they take the easiest route, the sick and the wounded.  We're the ones however, that make the psychically sick and wounded in droves.

You think Immortal Elves do what they do because they're Elves?  Wrong.  They do what they do because they are Immortal.  The CEOs of the AAAs are just as megalomanical, and the members of the Corporate Court, who have greater than normal lifespans due to being in Space and medical bubbles while they experience everything through Simsense are even worse.  Give them 1000 years and see how fucked they are.

Look at one of the bestiaries and read the information about the creatures written as if it were an actual book by a in-setting scientist.  Notice how almost all of the fucked up and terrible things are due to toxins, radiation, etc in the environment?  That wasn't Dragons boyo, they were sleeping.  No, for all the existential threat of the cataclysm coming in 3000 years, humans are still destroying each other and the planet we all sit on on a daily basis, and we're still responsible for nearly all our own problems, including the racist, religious, persecution and destruction of anything brought about during the Sixth world awakening.  

Lofwyr doesn't represent dragonkind in a mythical sense, he represents the personification of the cold, calculating, inhuman corporation, which plays chess with the lives of millions and considers countries as pieces to move on the chessboard.

Shadowrun is 100 times more cutting in it's criticism and analysis of the things Cyberpunk writes about, but it's palatable and playable by people who normally would pop their clogs if they read the stuff because the fantasy elements are masks.

You can play Shadowrun as D&D with Cyber, sure, but there's a lot there if you actually dig into the supplements and the world material.  There's a method to the madness and it isn't Cyber-Tolkien hurr hurr.

That's why once the original writers left, the setting has been the weakest part of the IP, not the strongest, and they focus 100% on rules, because on the world front, they got nothing.  The personal stories, like the short fiction and novels are an exception, Critias being a good example.

I never did play Shadowrun, but damn me if Krug's posts don't make me want to. Badly.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881452I'd like to hear how Cyberpsychosis (which is 100% reversible though therapy) is more Dehumanizing than loss of essence which is 0% reversible.

I haven't actually cracked a book for either game since the years rolled over to starting with '2,' but I seem to recall (at least with the way we played) that neither was really reversible for the players. Sure therapy theoretically could fix loss of empathy, but there was no mechanic for it and you weren't going to take months out from playing your character so that they could get their score back up (I suppose the GM could just say "okay, you go get therapy and we'll start the game when you're done," but that's just a case of penalty-isn't-a-penalty-if-the-GM-wipes-it-away). I suppose from the character's perspective, they'd be less hesitant to get more cyber if they knew that the side effects could slowly get better. But for us, both were just maximum cybering meters (and of course if you hit 0 it was turn in your character sheet time).

Quote from: CRKrueger;881458Sorry bro, you didn't read much Shadowrun.  Sure the danger of Universal Brotherhood comes from alien intelligences from another dimension/insect spirits.  Why are they getting converts though?  Because the Shadowrun world is cold, and isolating, and being a human being means nothing.  How fucked up does shit have to be for people to see a Hive Mind as a "good thing"?  Every time you encounter Insect Spirits you encounter broken people in pain.  The Invae are simply invasive predators and they take the easiest route, the sick and the wounded.  We're the ones however, that make the psychically sick and wounded in droves.

You think Immortal Elves do what they do because they're Elves?  Wrong.  They do what they do because they are Immortal.  The CEOs of the AAAs are just as megalomanical, and the members of the Corporate Court, who have greater than normal lifespans due to being in Space and medical bubbles while they experience everything through Simsense are even worse.  Give them 1000 years and see how fucked they are.

Look at one of the bestiaries and read the information about the creatures written as if it were an actual book by a in-setting scientist.  Notice how almost all of the fucked up and terrible things are due to toxins, radiation, etc in the environment?  That wasn't Dragons boyo, they were sleeping.  No, for all the existential threat of the cataclysm coming in 3000 years, humans are still destroying each other and the planet we all sit on on a daily basis, and we're still responsible for nearly all our own problems, including the racist, religious, persecution and destruction of anything brought about during the Sixth world awakening.  

Lofwyr doesn't represent dragonkind in a mythical sense, he represents the personification of the cold, calculating, inhuman corporation, which plays chess with the lives of millions and considers countries as pieces to move on the chessboard.

Shadowrun is 100 times more cutting in it's criticism and analysis of the things Cyberpunk writes about, but it's palatable and playable by people who normally would pop their clogs if they read the stuff because the fantasy elements are masks.

You can play Shadowrun as D&D with Cyber, sure, but there's a lot there if you actually dig into the supplements and the world material.  There's a method to the madness and it isn't Cyber-Tolkien hurr hurr.

That's why once the original writers left, the setting has been the weakest part of the IP, not the strongest, and they focus 100% on rules, because on the world front, they got nothing.  The personal stories, like the short fiction and novels are an exception, Critias being a good example.

Yup, It's humans who fucked up and polluted the world, it's humans that put Native People in concentration camps, it's humans who started doing purges of innocent meta humans, it's human led Megacorps that rose to power and established themselves as above government law.

It's the human nation of Aztlan that is invading the more meta human led Brazilian nation and despoiling the rainforest creating toxic nature spirits..

It wasn't until humans fucked up the world that metahumans could get in on the action, like with the elves taking over Ireland and Oregon and oppressing all non elves and kicking out all the humans.

Oh yeah the killer A.I. That took over the world's largest acrology and made it his own personal torture playground? Also made by humans.


Edit,  oh and another reason Shadowrun was more cyberpunk than Cyberpunk2020, was right there in the "3 rules for 2020"

" Style over Substance " and" Take it to the edge " 2020 emphasizes looking cool and being 90s extreme more than dealing with gritty streets, unpersonhood, corporate dominance and life being cheap.

While I love some pink Mohawk RP in Shadowrun, it still emphasized an uncaring world with technology higher than ever and yet society facing the same exact problems only worse than they'd ever been.

The whole point of being a Shadowrunner was that it was the only way for your character to get out of poverty. They literally consider dehumanizing themselves with cyberware, risking their lives in brutal combat, and being left dying in a gutter, because it's better than the alternative.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881458Sorry bro, you didn't read much Shadowrun.  

Guilty as charged! Aside of selected WH40k-related works, I didn't enjoy much RPG based fiction. So, I assume that each RPG setting is defined primarily by its official sourcebooks, while additional works of fiction serve as kind of "expanded" vision.

When I look at the reality through the eyes of an inhabitant of SR's world, unaware about the Big Picture, I see a world broken, twisted, insane... And I see plenty of ways to explain that, the majority of which have not much to do with mankind abusing the environment, allowing his greed to guide him or abandoning the reason and playing God. Truth be told, in spite of all this gadgetry around, I don't see Cyberpunk-ish dark future. I see Post-apocalypse. Colorful, wild post-apo.

This feeling is lost on me the moment I enter CP setting void of all these fantasy elements, void of alternative explanations about why the world is as shitty as it is. When my characters look around, all they see is guilt, along the lines of "good men didn't do enough to stop evil in the past".

Yep, that'd be it.

Quote from: Orphan81;881499Yup, It's humans who fucked up and polluted the world, it's humans that put Native People in concentration camps, it's humans who started doing purges of innocent meta humans, it's human led Megacorps that rose to power and established themselves as above government law.

It's the human nation of Aztlan that is invading the more meta human led Brazilian nation and despoiling the rainforest creating toxic nature spirits..

It wasn't until humans fucked up the world that metahumans could get in on the action, like with the elves taking over Ireland and Oregon and oppressing all non elves and kicking out all the humans.

Oh yeah the killer A.I. That took over the world's largest acrology and made it his own personal torture playground? Also made by humans.

Objection! We merely reacted. Yep, that's it, no harm done, just a reaction. Move along citizen, move along...

It's simple, really. Typical inhabitant of the world doesn't know what we, players know. They don't posses meta-knowledge and deep understanding of their world & its history, just like we don't exactly understand what is happening right now in various places all across the globe. We create clever explanations, tell ourselves how things are and sleep better, sure that our truth is better than theirs (whoever "they" might be).

The same goes for SR citizens. Some know how things are, some don't, some are led by half-truths or believe what they were being told by manipulators.

And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame others for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881511Objection! We merely reacted. Yep, that's it, no harm done, just a reaction. Move along citizen, move along...

It's simple, really. Typical inhabitant of the world doesn't know what we, players know. They don't posses meta-knowledge and deep understanding of their world & its history, just like we don't exactly understand what is happening right now in various places all across the globe. We create clever explanations, tell ourselves how things are and sleep better, sure that our truth is better than theirs (whoever "they" might be).

The same goes for SR citizens. Some know how things are, some don't, some are led by half-truths or believe what they were being told by manipulators.

And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame others for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

You mean just like they do in every other cyberpunk story?  I don't remember the common citizens in Neouromancer, Count Zero, and Snow Crash blaming themselves for the state of the world.

Quote from: Orphan81;881515You mean just like they do in every other cyberpunk story?  I don't remember the common citizens in Neouromancer, Count Zero, and Snow Crash blaming themselves for the state of the world.

I already said that I'm discussing it from the perspective of RPG sourcebooks alone and I'll continue to do so.

That being said...

Allow me to repeat myself: And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame "others" for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

In a setting void of non-human beings? While other parts of Mankind will be blamed (oh, those vile corporations, oh those army bastards, it's the government, man...), it's still Mankind. We did that. Not some orcs, not some dragons. "They" are "us" and we are to blame, as opposite to "world would be the better place without those scaly bastards - look what they force us to do"...

This is - at least if you ask me - entirely different perspective, entirely different center of gravity.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;881520I already said that I'm discussing it from the perspective of RPG sourcebooks alone and I'll continue to do so.

That being said...

Allow me to repeat myself: And since we, people, are hardwired to seek a scapegoat the moment shit hits the fan, it's only reasonable to assume that whole truckload of characters blame "others" for the state of SR's world, rather than point fingers at themselves.

In a setting void of non-human beings? While other parts of Mankind will be blamed (oh, those vile corporations, oh those army bastards, it's the government, man...), it's still Mankind. We did that. Not some orcs, not some dragons. "They" are "us" and we are to blame, as opposite to "world would be the better place without those scaly bastards - look what they force us to do"...

This is - at least if you ask me - entirely different perspective, entirely different center of gravity.

One thing about the races, Orcs, Dwarves, Trolls and Elves are human.  Call them genetic throwbacks or genetic evolution but we share most of our DNA and can reproduce.  You know all those forms of Junk DNA we thought were non-coding, like Introns?  They're not non-coding, they just need a high enough mana level to activate.  Take a human and turn on his mana-sensitive DNA, you get a meta-human.

That's the nasty thing about racism against the metas, it's really just good old-fashioned human racism and genocide all over again.  That's us.

Quote from: CRKrueger;881524One thing about the races, Orcs, Dwarves, Trolls and Elves are human.  Call them genetic throwbacks or genetic evolution but we share most of our DNA and can reproduce.  You know all those forms of Junk DNA we thought were non-coding, like Introns?  They're not non-coding, they just need a high enough mana level to activate.  Take a human and turn on his mana-sensitive DNA, you get a meta-human.

That's the nasty thing about racism against the metas, it's really just good old-fashioned human racism and genocide all over again.  That's us.

Precisely!

That's exactly my idea. SR is the perfect setting for the exploration of bias, xenophobia, abuse and similar stuff not as a background, but as one of main themes. The origin of those who are not like us adds even more mess to that. It allows all those murderers to operate under the sun, call themselves "good people", organize some "purity" camps, form new religions and movements because, hey, they don't hurt anybody, they just... clean.

Heck. There will always be someone to blame, no matter what.

btw, I think that it's also one of themes in critically acclaimed Shadowrun:Returns video game, so I guess that I'm not the only person on Earth perceiving things that way.

I forget who said this but I'll repeat it here:

Transhumanism is about how science and technology will make the world and humans better.  Cyberpunk is about how it doesn't.