Quote from: RPGPundit;881213I'd certainly say that somehow, Shadowrun caught the spirit of cyberpunk better than Cyberpunk did.  It had a much worse system, though.

Never got that impression at all. I mean, the implicit thing in Shadowrun is you go on "shadowruns" - which is gamespeak for pulling off jobs. Fine.

I think if anything - Cyberpunk 2020 is busy trying to create the setting without boxing people into doing "pulling off jobs" - but that's certainly in there, hence they call everyone "Edgerunners" (even though I didn't use the term very often). I could see how if you came to the game with fresh eyes, it would like that in comparison. The tone of Shadowrun seems, as I recall, to be more implicit.

I've run military games that transitioned into post-military criminal activities, that sprawled into government wet-work and sidelined even into a lot of corporate politics that side-lined into real politics.

But then I've done straight-up Heat-style crew-based campaigns, organized crime, biker-gangs of the wasteland type campaigns too, including a few orbital jaunts. CP2020 gives you a lot of room to do "cyberpunk-genre" stuff across the spectrum.

But as I've said elsewhere, I was already well saturated with concepts of the genre. Shadowrun, to me, had different conceits... because of dragons running around, and shit like that. The system did suck too.

@tenbones:

What are your seminal cyberpunk works that are not Gibson? I've been tracking some down little by little from reading Mirrorshades, but I know I'm missing a lot.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;881314@tenbones:

What are your seminal cyberpunk works that are not Gibson? I've been tracking some down little by little from reading Mirrorshades, but I know I'm missing a lot.

Strictly speaking - I don't think books alone inform "cyberpunk genre". But they certainly are the cornerstone. I think cyberpunk pulls from many other genres and mediums as a conceit itself.

My recommendations of books from the Old School:

"When Gravity Fails" - George Alec Effinger. Also it's sequels "Fire in the Sun" and "The Exile Kiss". Great series, does a superb job of showing cyberpunk-flavor outside of the normal Amero-centric locales. Cyberpunk is already really good at going for culture-shock, this series does it from a more middle-eastern angle. They did a sourcebook for the first book in Cyberpunk2020. Still holds up solid.

"A Scanner Darkly" - Phillip K. Dick. Honestly, I find that Dick's work is almost as foundational as Gibsons. Less overtly, but more spiritually to the cyberpunk genre. It underscores the alienation that Gibson and those that come after would solidify. Scanner is a perfect representation of that. Obviously: "Minority Report", "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"

"Islands in the Net" - Bruce Sterling. It's dated. Horribly so. But again, when it was written it was visionary. Read it like you're reading Heinlein then you try not to laugh as his spacemen whip out sliderulers to do their calculations for space-travel... Islands is like that. It's foundational conceptually, even though I think the writing itself is just okay.

"Shockwave Rider" - John Brunner. Another pre-Cyberpunk seminal work that lays the foundation for Gibson. It's really way ahead of its time. I think it came out around the mid-70's, but don't let that wave you off. He shows an immense skill for predicting things we take for granted. I think the "web" and malware were first coined here to my recollection. Really way ahead of its time.

"Software" - Rudy Rucker. Rucker is right there with Gibson, Sterling and Effinger. Pretty much one of the seminal cyberpunk authors. Software starts digging into ideas of virtual consciousness, and the hive-minded AI and in many ways skims the surface of Supraconsciousness as a cyberpunk concept. It has three sequels - "Wetware", "Freeware" and "Realware". What I like about this series is it is almost an indictment of Asimov's "Three Laws" in postulating how life would be like once those laws were cast away/not in effect. I've always thought Rucker was as important as Gibson in a blue-collar way to Gibson's more cerebral approach.

"Hardwired" - Walter John Williams. Not gonna lie... I love WJW. This is high-octane cyberpunk. Lots of action, but he does a great job of world-building alongside it. The sequel "The Voice of the Whirlwind" is almost a deconstruction of first book - and strays into what I'd call classic sci-fi space-opera. Or at least it skims it nicely - still a good book.


You'll note I don't put up Gibson or any new folks that I think are awesome(because you asked) but there are some good CP-style writers: Paolo Bacigalupi, Charles Stross, Kaye Wagner, (look them up). Gibson is simply prolific and complete. You could read all his books and say - there you go. All these new kids on the cyberpunk-block do great modern work, but I'd also say no one right now is pushing 30+ years ahead of the technical curve without retreading shit that's already been done. Maybe Alistair Reynolds - but then he's going into full transhumanism. Stross is very good tho.

I'd just as soon recommend cyberpunk-influenced music and movies as books these days.

Quote from: tenbones;881330My recommendations of books from the Old School:

Commendable selection, milord!

What's your opinion regarding "The River of Gods" by McDonald and "Blindisght" by Watts? I know it's neither old school nor pure CP, I'm simply interested in an opinion.

Quote from: tenbones;881330Strictly speaking - I don't think books alone inform "cyberpunk genre". But they certainly are the cornerstone. I think cyberpunk pulls from many other genres and mediums as a conceit itself.

My recommendations of books from the Old School:

Spoiler

"When Gravity Fails" - George Alec Effinger. Also it's sequels "Fire in the Sun" and "The Exile Kiss". Great series, does a superb job of showing cyberpunk-flavor outside of the normal Amero-centric locales. Cyberpunk is already really good at going for culture-shock, this series does it from a more middle-eastern angle. They did a sourcebook for the first book in Cyberpunk2020. Still holds up solid.

"A Scanner Darkly" - Phillip K. Dick. Honestly, I find that Dick's work is almost as foundational as Gibsons. Less overtly, but more spiritually to the cyberpunk genre. It underscores the alienation that Gibson and those that come after would solidify. Scanner is a perfect representation of that. Obviously: "Minority Report", "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"

"Islands in the Net" - Bruce Sterling. It's dated. Horribly so. But again, when it was written it was visionary. Read it like you're reading Heinlein then you try not to laugh as his spacemen whip out sliderulers to do their calculations for space-travel... Islands is like that. It's foundational conceptually, even though I think the writing itself is just okay.

"Shockwave Rider" - John Brunner. Another pre-Cyberpunk seminal work that lays the foundation for Gibson. It's really way ahead of its time. I think it came out around the mid-70's, but don't let that wave you off. He shows an immense skill for predicting things we take for granted. I think the "web" and malware were first coined here to my recollection. Really way ahead of its time.

"Software" - Rudy Rucker. Rucker is right there with Gibson, Sterling and Effinger. Pretty much one of the seminal cyberpunk authors. Software starts digging into ideas of virtual consciousness, and the hive-minded AI and in many ways skims the surface of Supraconsciousness as a cyberpunk concept. It has three sequels - "Wetware", "Freeware" and "Realware". What I like about this series is it is almost an indictment of Asimov's "Three Laws" in postulating how life would be like once those laws were cast away/not in effect. I've always thought Rucker was as important as Gibson in a blue-collar way to Gibson's more cerebral approach.

"Hardwired" - Walter John Williams. Not gonna lie... I love WJW. This is high-octane cyberpunk. Lots of action, but he does a great job of world-building alongside it. The sequel "The Voice of the Whirlwind" is almost a deconstruction of first book - and strays into what I'd call classic sci-fi space-opera. Or at least it skims it nicely - still a good book.

You'll note I don't put up Gibson or any new folks that I think are awesome(because you asked) but there are some good CP-style writers: Paolo Bacigalupi, Charles Stross, Kaye Wagner, (look them up). Gibson is simply prolific and complete. You could read all his books and say - there you go. All these new kids on the cyberpunk-block do great modern work, but I'd also say no one right now is pushing 30+ years ahead of the technical curve without retreading shit that's already been done. Maybe Alistair Reynolds - but then he's going into full transhumanism. Stross is very good tho.

I'd just as soon recommend cyberpunk-influenced music and movies as books these days.

Excellent selection - and I must admit, some of these have fallen off my radar. Hardwired, for example, seems too action-oriented for me.
But that's a major difference in approach right there...
There's always at least three approaches to genre emulation.
1) Emulating the structure and pacing of the stories in the genre. Short of a GM familiar with the genre and a group of fans, storygames would do that best, because they're done to do that. Tech Noir would be the best cyberpunk example I know of:).

2) Emulating the feeling of living in that world. Cyberpunk 2020 is about this, period. Everything else you can use it for, is icing on the cake.
Hell, it has "Hardwired" as a setting:D!
Fates Worse Than Death would be another game in that vein, except it's neo-cyberpunk. Then again, I prefer neo-cyberpunk these days, because it's IMO closest to "living in this world".

3) Emulating a specific, "most gameable" part of the genre. Dungeon-clearing in D&D, runs in Shadowrun, and - I'd assume - doing a mission in the Leverage game are all about that (again, I might be wrong about Leverage, never played it - please don't fixate on it;)). It gives an easy recipe that most any GM can emulate, most any GM can improvise on this theme, so they're the most popular ones...but ultimately it's fixating too much on just part of the experience assumed in either of the other two. IME, the rest of the experience tends to suffer from it;).

Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" - I've never read it, it slipped past me somehow. I'd heard about it, but about a month ago I was talking with some editorial folks about "The Windup Girl" by Paolo Bacigalupi and "River of the Gods" was immediately brought up as something that I would love.

So - it's currently sitting third on my stack (behind "The Bone Clocks" - by David Mitchell and "Sharp Ends" - by Joe Abercrombie).

"Blindsight" - its, to me, a bit of a sci-fi milestone. It's one of the first modern transhumanist books that digs into neuroscience and psychology in a manner that is both honest while provocative. It's well crafted and executed. And I'm normally ambivalent about Transhumanism books oddly.

Mainly because I see the major conflicts people have with transhumanism to be less controversial than the conflicts we'll have getting to that point. Alistair Reynold's "Revelation Space" books are imo, the best of this lot. Good hard-SF reading right there.

Quote from: AsenRG;881348Excellent selection - and I must admit, some of these have fallen off my radar. Hardwired, for example, seems too action-oriented for me.
But that's a major difference in approach right there...
There's always at least three approaches to genre emulation.
1) Emulating the structure and pacing of the stories in the genre. Short of a GM familiar with the genre and a group of fans, storygames would do that best, because they're done to do that. Tech Noir would be the best cyberpunk example I know of:).

2) Emulating the feeling of living in that world. Cyberpunk 2020 is about this, period. Everything else you can use it for, is icing on the cake.
Hell, it has "Hardwired" as a setting:D!
Fates Worse Than Death would be another game in that vein, except it's neo-cyberpunk. Then again, I prefer neo-cyberpunk these days, because it's IMO closest to "living in this world".

3) Emulating a specific, "most gameable" part of the genre. Dungeon-clearing in D&D, runs in Shadowrun, and - I'd assume - doing a mission in the Leverage game are all about that (again, I might be wrong about Leverage, never played it - please don't fixate on it;)). It gives an easy recipe that most any GM can emulate, most any GM can improvise on this theme, so they're the most popular ones...but ultimately it's fixating too much on just part of the experience assumed in either of the other two. IME, the rest of the experience tends to suffer from it;).

I agree with all of this. You are the recipient of the D.O.N.G. Black Belt. /bow

(and yeah - Hardwired was definitely action-fest. Which, as you mentioned, shows us the range of the genre.) You nailed it on the division of approach.

It might be more accurate to say you've illustrated here a possible segregation of GMing-styles that are less tribal and more accurate to how people approach gaming in general.

Quote from: tenbones;881354I agree with all of this. You are the recipient of the D.O.N.G. Black Belt. /bow

(and yeah - Hardwired was definitely action-fest. Which, as you mentioned, shows us the range of the genre.) You nailed it on the division of approach.

It might be more accurate to say you've illustrated here a possible segregation of GMing-styles that are less tribal and more accurate to how people approach gaming in general.

I am honoured:).

But yes, it's about GMing styles.
Thing is, Shadowrun, CP2020 and Tech Noir all assume a rather pure form of a specific GMing style.
Those games are written for one kind of GM or another in mind, and unlike some other titles in the same genre, it shows clearly what the assumed style is.

Blue Planet makes for a rather good cyberpunk game, too. But unlike the three games above, I can't tell which approach we're meant to take, though I suspect the storytelling style wasn't given much consideration;).

I see that we agree.

Quote from: tenbones;881353Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" -

I think you're not gonna be disappointed. I'd suggest moving "The Bone Clocks" to the end of the line. It's a good reading, but I feel both Abercrombie and McDonald produced better books.

Great list Tenbones, kudos for the shout to Islands in the Net.

For me, Cyberpunk 2020 was Hardwired the rpg, not at all Neuromancer. Later they produced a Hardwired supplement but from day one it seemed tapped into that rather broken world where to win was to make it to the orbitals and where cybertech was a consumer choice.

Also, FVB is spot on with his core experience point.

Quote from: tenbones;881353Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" - I've never read it, it slipped past me somehow. I'd heard about it, but about a month ago I was talking with some editorial folks about "The Windup Girl" by Paolo Bacigalupi and "River of the Gods" was immediately brought up as something that I would love.

So - it's currently sitting third on my stack (behind "The Bone Clocks" - by David Mitchell and "Sharp Ends" - by Joe Abercrombie).

"Blindsight" - its, to me, a bit of a sci-fi milestone. It's one of the first modern transhumanist books that digs into neuroscience and psychology in a manner that is both honest while provocative. It's well crafted and executed. And I'm normally ambivalent about Transhumanism books oddly.

Mainly because I see the major conflicts people have with transhumanism to be less controversial than the conflicts we'll have getting to that point. Alistair Reynold's "Revelation Space" books are imo, the best of this lot. Good hard-SF reading right there.

River is good. Based on your recommendations I think you'd like it.

I really like Blindsight, but it's not remotely cyberpunk. It's transhumanist sf, an evolutionary pffshoot.

Quote from: D-503;881373River is good. Based on your recommendations I think you'd like it.

I really like Blindsight, but it's not remotely cyberpunk. It's transhumanist sf, an evolutionary pffshoot.

Yeah I plan on cracking that sucker soon. I've been waiting two years for R. Scott Bakker's last book in his series, "The Unholy Consult" - sweet Galactus I've been waiting! And it drops in a few months... so I need to clear the board.

I was remiss for not mentioning the 'Aubry Knight' series from Steven Barnes (he also co-wrote Dream Park with Larry Niven). But the "Streetlethal" books with Aubry Knight had a big impact on my cyberpunk sensibilities. Steve is a great guy. I met him once many years ago, and he was such a gracious guy.

Quote from: tenbones;881330Strictly speaking - I don't think books alone inform "cyberpunk genre". But they certainly are the cornerstone. I think cyberpunk pulls from many other genres and mediums as a conceit itself.

My recommendations of books from the Old School:

Out of those, I've heard of all of them, but have not read most of them yet. Only "DADoES",  and "Islands in the Net". I've liked the movie versions of those PKD books.

Quote from: tenbones;881330You'll note I don't put up Gibson or any new folks that I think are awesome(because you asked)

I quite like Gibson, but I've pretty  much read everything by him, except for his last book and the difference engine.

Quotebut there are some good CP-style writers: Paolo Bacigalupi, Charles Stross, Kaye Wagner, (look them up). Gibson is simply prolific and complete. You could read all his books and say - there you go. All these new kids on the cyberpunk-block do great modern work, but I'd also say no one right now is pushing 30+ years ahead of the technical curve without retreading shit that's already been done. Maybe Alistair Reynolds - but then he's going into full transhumanism. Stross is very good tho.

I'd just as soon recommend cyberpunk-influenced music and movies as books these days.

I'll check out some of these authors. I tried Charles Stross' Accelerando, and I had the same problem with him that I had with Neal Stephenson. I couldn't get past their writing, though I'd probably would have enjoyed their ideas in a non fiction sort of book. Maybe I need to give another one of his books a go.

Quote from: tenbones;881353Ironic that you brought up "River of the Gods" - I've never read it, it slipped past me somehow. I'd heard about it, but about a month ago I was talking with some editorial folks about "The Windup Girl" by Paolo Bacigalupi and "River of the Gods" was immediately brought up as something that I would love.

Definitely going to have to checkout River of the Gods then. Picked up Windup Girl in 2013 while on vacation in South Carolina (Actually found a full sized Barnes & Noble that was still open) and it's one of my favorite books from the last decade or so.

Quote from: GameDaddy;881427Definitely going to have to checkout River of the Gods then. Picked up Windup Girl in 2013 while on vacation in South Carolina (Actually found a full sized Barnes & Noble that was still open) and it's one of my favorite books from the last decade or so.

Didn't overly care for windup up girl.  It was well written, I'm glad I read it, don't know that I enjoyed it.  I wouldn't read another one by that author for enjoyment but I would be happy to read it if it was a book club selection.   If that makes sense.  I also don't think it's cyber punk.  I don't think it's either cyber or punk, I could be wrong and would be happy to argue about it.

Anyone read Red Rising?  I quite recommend it, it might be a little YA but it's stretching for more.  It's not cyber punk cause their aren't really computers, and it's about trying to over come challenges, not being crushed under them.


Is that the difference between cyber punk, and what the OP said we ended up playing instead?  Being crushed under the dystopia, vs getting heavier ordanence and blasting away at the monolith til we can stand up straight?

Second question their seams to be a schism between story games and what ever it is we true beliveavers are playing (just for the record I am a true believer since I don't want to be lynched) I am sure you have been all over that in great depth many times.  Where is the best clearest discussion or descriptions of the differences?