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[5E] Point buy, stat array, or rolls

Started by mAcular Chaotic, February 07, 2016, 07:34:30 PM

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jcfiala

#60
February 19, 2016, 04:56:22 PM
Quote from: Skarg;880051How about the guys who roll the opposite: 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 11? :p

If your stats are that bad, you probably trip over a rock leaving your house and die.  Roll a new character. :)
 

saskganesh

#61
February 19, 2016, 05:30:17 PM
My preference is to let it roll!

rawma

#62
February 19, 2016, 06:54:56 PM
Quote from: Batman;879983... When you compared them to the guys who rolled 17, 17, 16, 14, 14, 10 ...

Quote from: Skarg;880051How about the guys who roll the opposite: 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 11? :p

But with roll four dice and keep the best three, those aren't really opposite. The probability of rolling >= 17 is roughly the probability of rolling <= 7. The probability of rolling >= 16 is a little higher than the probability of rolling <= 8. The probability of rolling >= 14 is somewhat higher than the probability of rolling <= 10. The probability of rolling >= 10 is greater than the probability of rolling <= 14. So the opposite (by the probabilities) would be better than 7, 7, 8, 10, 10, 14, which is not that bad.

cranebump

#63
February 19, 2016, 07:05:58 PM
I think rolling is more fun, but used array on the last set of characters, just to be fair to everybody.  I think it's nice they have options.
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."

Skarg

#64
February 19, 2016, 07:06:59 PM
Quote from: rawma;880076But with roll four dice and keep the best three, those aren't really opposite. The probability of rolling >= 17 is roughly the probability of rolling <= 7. The probability of rolling >= 16 is a little higher than the probability of rolling <= 8. The probability of rolling >= 14 is somewhat higher than the probability of rolling <= 10. The probability of rolling >= 10 is greater than the probability of rolling <= 14. So the opposite (by the probabilities) would be better than 7, 7, 8, 10, 10, 14, which is not that bad.

Oh, sure. I always think of D&D as 3d6.

(We used to joke about people rolling low and wanting to start over, but being required to roll to hit themselves and failing. ;) )

Omega

#65
February 19, 2016, 07:21:43 PM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;880002That's the kind of balance issue I meant.

That and 5e's base bonuses are fairly static so starting off with +4 is pretty huge.

Not really. A + 4 is just a +4. It might be important in one situation and not in another. And most players could care less if someone else hits more often or saves vs poison more often, etc more often.

5e stats can be improved over time and cap out at 20. So someone with say 18 will hit the cap in a single stat up. Which is exactly what Kefra did when she hit level 4 and bumped her WIS to 20. When she hits level 12 her DEX will hit 20 as well. Whereas my character who has been picking up feats is still where he was at the start stat-wise.

And note that your proficiency bonus does increase gradually. So your to-hit is going to improve no matter.

Omega

#66
February 19, 2016, 07:26:16 PM
Quote from: cranebump;880079I think rolling is more fun, but used array on the last set of characters, just to be fair to everybody.  I think it's nice they have options.

Very much so. The DMG also takes into account using the two special stats by adding more to the array or point pool.

Funfact: Point buy is set up to short change min-maxers.

Opaopajr

#67
February 19, 2016, 08:10:21 PM Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 08:16:49 PM by Opaopajr
Quote from: Skarg;880051How about the guys who roll the opposite: 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 11? :p

Four odd numbers and lots of low scores? Play a non-variant human cleric.

That's two -3 mods (5,5), one -2 mod (6), two -1 mods (8,8), and one +1 mod.

Put your two -3s in the second tier of saves, STR, INT, CHA.

Choose Sacred Flame cantrip. (Tempted to say Guidance cantrip, too.)

There's decent arguments to place the 12 and two 8s however you like among the first tier saves, DEX, CON, WIS.

You'll actually do fine in 5e, especially if you shop and chargen wisely. It's crazy hard to make an "irredeemably bad character." Certain chargen choices can get annoyingly frequent, but on the whole it's way better than WotC's other offerings.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

The Butcher

#68
February 19, 2016, 08:26:16 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;880101Four odd numbers and lots of low scores? Play a non-variant human cleric.

That's two -3 mods (5,5), one -2 mod (6), two -1 mods (8,8), and one +1 mod.

Put your two -3s in the second tier of saves, STR, INT, CHA.

Choose Sacred Flame cantrip. (Tempted to say Guidance cantrip, too.)

There's decent arguments to place the 12 and two 8s however you like among the first tier saves, DEX, CON, WIS.

Opaopajr

#69
February 19, 2016, 08:49:39 PM
It's a hobby.

I can easily see a sullen cleric of Mask, god of thieves. Criminal background, chain shirt for stealth, 12 in DEX. AC 16 with shield, Stealth at +3, Guidance. Solid Rogue support.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

TrippyHippy

#70
February 19, 2016, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: jcfiala;880057If your stats are that bad, you probably trip over a rock leaving your house and die.  Roll a new character. :)

That's not the problem as most groups accept this. But try telling an individual player that his/her stats are too good - when the rest of the party rolled average - and that is where the issues start for me.
I pretended that a picture of a toddler was representative of the Muslim Migrant population to Europe and then lied about a Private Message I sent to Pundit when I was admonished for it.  (Edited by Admin)

Omega

#71
February 19, 2016, 10:14:38 PM
Quote from: jcfiala;880057If your stats are that bad, you probably trip over a rock leaving your house and die.  Roll a new character. :)

I once outlived a character with a pair of 18s and a pair of 16s once with a character with about as bad rolls as that. And 1 HP on top of that. The dice really were against me that day.

Omega

#72
February 19, 2016, 10:23:15 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;880101Four odd numbers and lots of low scores? Play a non-variant human cleric.

Or a fighter or rogue. With their extra stat ups a character with that low stats could eventually bump up a few to average or better. Or boost that 11 to a 20 and use the excess on something else.

Christopher Brady

#73
February 19, 2016, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: Batman;879983About as much balance issued that we saw in either 3.PF or 4e. In 5e it raises the baseline abilities of most characters who roll, with the exception of those that roll terribly. The ones that rolled in our D&D games (regardless of edition) almost always had better arrays to dole out compared to those who went with the point-buy/elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8.

The ones who choose the latter were often the ones who had a history of just rolling terrible for starting characters. For me it was two guys who just were horrible and always had a max stat of 13 and most were 8 to 11's. When you compared them to the guys who rolled 17, 17, 16, 14, 14, 10 it created a significant disparity among the players AND caused more work for me as the DM.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;880002That's the kind of balance issue I meant.

That and 5e's base bonuses are fairly static so starting off with +4 is pretty huge.

Yeah, it is.  It manages to more or less outshine everything, and if the DM tries to balance it, everyone else who doesn't have that bonus feels kinda useless.  Or gets mulched.

The game, if I remember correctly, is balanced for a +2 bonus in your major stats.  Which makes Attribute hungry class, like the Monk, easier to manage.

Quote from: Omega;880085Not really. A + 4 is just a +4. It might be important in one situation and not in another. And most players could care less if someone else hits more often or saves vs poison more often, etc more often.

REALLY?  Man, I wish I had your table.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;880122That's not the problem as most groups accept this. But try telling an individual player that his/her stats are too good - when the rest of the party rolled average - and that is where the issues start for me.

Yeah, when one person is clearly better than the rest, try convincing them to tone it down.  Good luck with that.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Skarg

#74
February 20, 2016, 11:48:01 AM
One of the advantages of a fairy high risk of death even for strong characters (as opposed to "it's really hard to actually die") is that at least some of the characters get shuffled, and luck matters a lot during play, not just during roll-up (also as opposed to the players who want to split all EP and loot equally at all times, and to have replacement characters start at the same level as the survivors).
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