Quote from: Omega;876520

Thanks that was helpful. So let's see if I got this.

So match up a * with a funny triangle. Throw those pairs away. Count the sword thingy as a * (but remember you can trade the sword in for a prize in the bottom of the cracker jack box) and count the hollow triangle and circle thingy as a funny triangle thingy (but remember you can trade it in for a worm in somebody's apple). Pair up the sword and hollow thingies like you did with the * and funny triangle thingies and throw any pairs away.

If you have any *s left over you succeed. (Remember swords count as *s.)  If instead you have some funny triangles left over you failed. (Remember that hollow triangle and circle thingies count as triangle thingies.) Decide whether to trade in swords or hollow triangle circle thingies for prizes or worms respectively.

Now see if you have any laurel wreaths and pair them up with any hexagon thingies. Throw those pairs away. If you have any laurel wreaths left you get a present (like at Christmas) even if you failed (apparently Star Wars Santa does not keep a list of bad little boys and girls). If instead you have any hexagon thingies you get threatened by the Star Wars version of the Grinch even if you succeeded. The Grinch hates all boys and girls good or bad.

So instead of doing simple arithmetic we play a matching game and see what's left. OK.

Quote from: Bren;876535Now see if you have any laurel wreaths and pair them up with any hexagon thingies. Throw those pairs away. If you have any laurel wreaths left you get a present (like at Christmas) even if you failed (apparently Star Wars Santa does not keep a list of bad little boys and girls). If instead you have any hexagon thingies you get threatened by the Star Wars version of the Grinch even if you succeeded. The Grinch hates all boys and girls good or bad.

So instead of doing simple arithmetic we play a matching game and see what's left. OK.

But but but? The STORY

Quote from: Lynn;876496Just by itself, counting the number of symbols is basic addition.

The point of my example was that these players could quickly count the number of dice to roll but took a very very long time to add up the resulting numbers.

So, for them, counting and basic addition were qualitatively different.

QuoteI don't suggest all math based resolutions trump all other methods either, or that a game system has to be as dirt simple as possible for it to be good. This system seems to require you to learn an arbitrary symbolic system but doesn't grant any obvious benefit in experience or ease-of-use to the user - or at least nobody has explained exactly what that is.

Id really like to see a short explanation from FFG explaining exactly why this is a great match for players who want to play a Star Wars game. All that I see is a marketing gimmick so far.

Every dice mechanic is a gimmick. Some are actually beneficial, I think. I don't know if this is such; the number of players I've met who would benefit from only having to count and not to add is really really small.

Quote from: Lynn;876493Evidence of what - that the dice gimmick is a user-valueless marketing strategy, or that its easier to learn something based on preexisting knowledge schema rather than substituting a collection of nonsensical symbols?

Start with the use of symbols is without value.

Quote from: Lynn;876496Just by itself, counting the number of symbols is basic addition.

Certainly. As someone already mentioned, the symbols are pretty much the same as + and - results on FATE dice. Adding together up to five +/-1s is simpler than the equivalent amount of d6s for some people.  

The use of symbols also allows such results to be matched visually. Symbols also allow for the three axes of results. If you tried to do this with just numbers, you need to use colours to distinguish those numbers or isolate the axes on different dice. These both have issues that symbols don't.

Quote from: rawma;876545The point of my example was that these players could quickly count the number of dice to roll but took a very very long time to add up the resulting numbers.

So, for them, counting and basic addition were qualitatively different.

There's certainly every type of player out there, but are people who are especially that way their target customer?

Quote from: rawma;876545Every dice mechanic is a gimmick. Some are actually beneficial, I think. I don't know if this is such; the number of players I've met who would benefit from only having to count and not to add is really really small.

Not every dice mechanic is a marketing gimmick.

If someone comes up with a unique mechanic that presents its own special learning curve, it should have a benefit in itself. It could be evocative of the genre, or be easy to learn or something else. That is, if it is an effective marketing gimmick to the benefit the customer.

But I don't think its the only problem with the game either, from a user perspective -

- Much like camazotz' experience, I also found just reading the book with the symbols to be very unpleasant

- I don't like how the key character types are spread out over separate games (as compared with the single WEG book that delivered everything)

When I first looked at the game, the impression I got was that FFG wants to sell us a bunch of interconnected, shared system games and game accessories and milk the hell out of the attraction of the Star Wars license.

Quote from: Skywalker;876555Start with the use of symbols is without value.

I didn't say symbols are always without value, but that in this case they don't appear to add value.

Related to your other question, you can certainly use symbols for a +/- value state, and that is also basic addition.

You can also use symbols or colors to evoke the atmosphere of the genre presented in a game, but what about these symbols particularly does that?

Quote from: Lynn;876560You can also use symbols or colors to evoke the atmosphere of the genre presented in a game, but what about these symbols particularly does that?

A number of the symbols are associated with Star Wars, like the iconic lightsaber for critical success, Jedi Order symbol for advantage and Empire symbol for threat. The common hit and miss symbols are chosen for ease of visual recognition and relationship.

I think different symbols are visually easier than different coloured numbers or symbols, especially when the size of a die face. Plus colours are an issue for those with colour blindness.

Quote from: Lynn;876496This system seems to require you to learn an arbitrary symbolic system but doesn't grant any obvious benefit in experience or ease-of-use to the user - or at least nobody has explained exactly what that is.

The dice generate successes and failures that cancel each other out and report a binary result (success or failure). That's easy enough to model with normal dice and plenty of games do.

The additional symbols color the success or failure as being either neutral, advantaged, or threatened. I've seen similar information fed back from systems using traditional dice (the 2d20 system we use for the Infinity RPG does it), so this isn't impossible either.

But the dice ALSO have the possibility of giving you a third axis of information -- Triumph and Despair. The values on this third axis also aren't mutually exclusive, so you could generate a result like, "Failure, but with a silver lining (Advantage) which turns out to have a horrible consequence (Despair)."

I don't know of any other game that does that. And I can't think of a way to do it with normal dice which wouldn't be considerably more complicated than building the skill dice pools for FFG's system and then counting the symbols.

Quote from: Bren;876535So instead of doing simple arithmetic we play a matching game and see what's left. OK.

Where the system falls apart is that it uses three inconsistent matching/cancellation rules for each set of symbols and then renders the whole thing into nonsense by filling the book with a mountain of rules and guidelines which are inconsistent in their use of the core mechanic.

The core concept of reporting three axes of information isn't horrible, though, despite the specific execution. And most of the people who are reporting success with the system (a) house rule out the inconsistent matching/cancellation rules and (b) ignore most of the badly designed rules built on top of it while focusing on the useful improv tool the core mechanic provides.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;876579The dice generate successes and failures that cancel each other out and report a binary result (success or failure). That's easy enough to model with normal dice and plenty of games do.

The additional symbols color the success or failure as being either neutral, advantaged, or threatened. I've seen similar information fed back from systems using traditional dice (the 2d20 system we use for the Infinity RPG does it), so this isn't impossible either.

But the dice ALSO have the possibility of giving you a third axis of information -- Triumph and Despair. The values on this third axis also aren't mutually exclusive, so you could generate a result like, "Failure, but with a silver lining (Advantage) which turns out to have a horrible consequence (Despair)."

I don't know of any other game that does that. And I can't think of a way to do it with normal dice which wouldn't be considerably more complicated than building the skill dice pools for FFG's system and then counting the symbols.



Where the system falls apart is that it uses three inconsistent matching/cancellation rules for each set of symbols and then renders the whole thing into nonsense by filling the book with a mountain of rules and guidelines which are inconsistent in their use of the core mechanic.

The core concept of reporting three axes of information isn't horrible, though, despite the specific execution. And most of the people who are reporting success with the system (a) house rule out the inconsistent matching/cancellation rules and (b) ignore most of the badly designed rules built on top of it while focusing on the useful improv tool the core mechanic provides.

Linking your own blog as proof?  Cute.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;876579And I can't think of a way to do it with normal dice which wouldn't be considerably more complicated than building the skill dice pools for FFG's system and then counting the symbols.

One could use table lookup. It's pretty simple. Whether table look up or funny symbols is preferred is predominantly a subjective issue.

This whole thread serves as a great example of YMMV. :-)

I personally believe it's a fantastic time to be a tabletop RPG gamer. Look at the high volume of high-quality books/supplements streaming out of the cottages. Combine that with the depth of the existing games out there and you would be hard pressed to not find something that fits your tastes.

Good times.

Quote from: trechriron;876630This whole thread serves as a great example of YMMV. :-)

I personally believe it's a fantastic time to be a tabletop RPG gamer. Look at the high volume of high-quality books/supplements streaming out of the cottages. Combine that with the depth of the existing games out there and you would be hard pressed to not find something that fits your tastes.

Good times.

1: That and "Your Ability May Vary". The harder a time a player has with symbols. The more a barrier it becomes and some alternative is needed like the conversion charts.

2: Perhaps too much volume. Its now too easy for good games to get lost in the vast sea of games.

3: Is there a symbol for that?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;876579But the dice ALSO have the possibility of giving you a third axis of information -- Triumph and Despair. The values on this third axis also aren't mutually exclusive, so you could generate a result like, "Failure, but with a silver lining (Advantage) which turns out to have a horrible consequence (Despair)."

Are those results that are specified someplace in what they mean or does the GM or player need to think something up on the spot? Er, wait...

Okay, read the article on your blog - a really clear explanation, thanks! The game seems worse than I originally thought!

Quote from: Lynn;876667Are those results that are specified someplace in what they mean or does the GM or player need to think something up on the spot? Er, wait...

Okay, read the article on your blog. Its worse than I thought!

It's really not.  At all.