Quote from: Shipyard Locked;874578Was Maztica really that bad?

I did an extensive Design & Development topic on how to 'massage into viability' the power level in comparison to Faerûn.

Basically the guy who wrote it was so disgusted by human sacrifice that he defined the entire culture as essentially irredeemably evil and worthy of cosmic destruction by the coming of colonialism. All those who adhered to the dominant culture's ways were turned into evil humanoids (which did not exist before on Maztica), and all the good people are fleeing into the greedy hands of Amn and the worshipers of Helm — who are in turn showing they are not much better.

Overall the backstory is a "Lorraine Williams approved!" whitewash of good's triumphalism over evil and backwards villainy.

Which, whatever, could be playable. It does get Faerûn familiar characters into the mix, but they so outclass the garbage magic system and prereq hogtied new classes Maztica was saddled with that it isn't really fruitful. The whole mechanics section needs a revamp to even bother mixing the two worlds.

Conceptually? The god cosmology attached to alignment is interesting as the stated fluidity of worship makes it so that it is more a true pantheist pantheon than henotheism pantheist. Several of the adventures were quite interesting, too.

The cultures were made a touch singular stereotypical, but c'mon, that's most RPG kingdom/culture design. The cultural (racial?) stat mod WP/NWP differences were kinda dumb, like getting +1 X but -1 Y, prone to NWP Cooking, for being French. But Cities of Gold, though they continued some of that, really added new ideas for classes and the like (they still flubbed on inflationary prereqs, but whatev).

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;874578Was Maztica really that bad?

I own the box set. I felt when I used it that it didn't really live up to its potential. I felt they set it up to be conquered with relative ease. Which is a shame.

Is it something worth developing? Maybe.

But I'll say this - there is a *reason* that Kara-Tur, Maztica and Al-Qadim fell out of print. I'm not saying it's based on inherent racism (I would never go that far) but I've found a lot of unease when trying to get my groups to go to Kara-Tur or Al-Qadim or Maztica specifically, because of the inherent exoticness of the cultures.

And yes - it's total cognitive dissonance. That they would play in make-believe Elf-cultures underground, or in Dwarf-cultures or in crazy Talislanta-cultures but feel weird about fantasy real-world analogs is bizarre to me. But I've seen it many many times in person and I've seen lots of people post it in forums. So my assumption is that it's pretty common.

That said I have the cure for what ails them, but it's all in the presentation. I'm confident I can pull it off. I personally left Maztica off my list of interests because I think that Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim are better suited for the kind of content I want to do. Maztica is a harder sell. I'm familiar with Kara-Tur inside and out, and I wrote a lot (I think the only official) of the 3e material for Al-Qadim in Dragon by request, so I'll leverage that for 5e. Beyond that - it's purely logistics. I'm working with a small tight crew, and we're already taking a lot on with our current projects. If things go moderately well I'm sure I'll be needing to bring more folks on.

But we're a long ways out from that, as a casual perusal of DM's Guild will show you. The shitshow has already started.

So yeah, Maztica. It needs love. Unfortunately I'm already slogging in other swamps east of Faerun.

Quote from: Opaopajr;874597I did an extensive Design & Development topic on how to 'massage into viability' the power level in comparison to Faerûn.

Basically the guy who wrote it was so disgusted by human sacrifice that he defined the entire culture as essentially irredeemably evil and worthy of cosmic destruction by the coming of colonialism. All those who adhered to the dominant culture's ways were turned into evil humanoids (which did not exist before on Maztica), and all the good people are fleeing into the greedy hands of Amn and the worshipers of Helm — who are in turn showing they are not much better.

Overall the backstory is a "Lorraine Williams approved!" whitewash of good's triumphalism over evil and backwards villainy.

Which, whatever, could be playable. It does get Faerûn familiar characters into the mix, but they so outclass the garbage magic system and prereq hogtied new classes Maztica was saddled with that it isn't really fruitful. The whole mechanics section needs a revamp to even bother mixing the two worlds.

Conceptually? The god cosmology attached to alignment is interesting as the stated fluidity of worship makes it so that it is more a true pantheist pantheon than henotheism pantheist. Several of the adventures were quite interesting, too.

The cultures were made a touch singular stereotypical, but c'mon, that's most RPG kingdom/culture design. The cultural (racial?) stat mod WP/NWP differences were kinda dumb, like getting +1 X but -1 Y, prone to NWP Cooking, for being French. But Cities of Gold, though they continued some of that, really added new ideas for classes and the like (they still flubbed on inflationary prereqs, but whatev).

You nailed it. Rather than really make Maztica into something that could thrive on it's own, it felt set up to be a punching bag for the Faerun. It's a real shame.

Quote from: tenbones;874600You nailed it. Rather than really make Maztica into something that could thrive on it's own, it felt set up to be a punching bag for the Faerun. It's a real shame.

Since you're familiar with 3e and Fantasy Quest, could you take a look at my Maztica topic on Design & Development?

My goal was to step very light upon the source material. I don't want a full spells/classes rewrite, I want a subsystem addendum to make competitive with Faerûn magic. My solution was to allow Pluma & Hishna spells be imbued into culturally exclusive one-shot charge items starting at lvl 1, but with a basis of expected cultural class cooperation.

We are allowed access to The Horde, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, and Maztica for FR DM Guild. But they don't explain how much of the canon material and mechanics can be edited.

Are we allowed to add new mechanics? Can we add, but unspoken to not get carried away, yet no guidelines? Or is it all handwaved into a flat 5e SRD baseline mechanics?

(Ideally the cleanest solution is use 5e SRD spells, but with a different cultural favortism for certain classes and magic schools.)

The only issue I have with Al-Qadim is how close it could be to the Realm's Calimshan and that region.

Maybe you should do those settings RPGPundit?  I mean Arrows of India is possibly the only book I know that deals with mythical India.  Certainly you can master those regions of the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: Opaopajr;874623Since you're familiar with 3e and Fantasy Quest, could you take a look at my Maztica topic on Design & Development?

My goal was to step very light upon the source material. I don't want a full spells/classes rewrite, I want a subsystem addendum to make competitive with Faerûn magic. My solution was to allow Pluma & Hishna spells be imbued into culturally exclusive one-shot charge items starting at lvl 1, but with a basis of expected cultural class cooperation.

I'll give it a look when I get some time. Based on what you're saying here - it's a solid idea. I think one-shot charged items going along with Pluma and Hishna spells sounds good on paper. But you know... the Devil's in the Details as to whether it will scale well and of course most importantly - be fun. My gut reaction to Maztica is that you're going to be fighting an uphill battle to get people on board with it, due strictly to the lack of material and relative exoticness of the setting. But that's also it's strenght

Quote from: Opaopajr;874623We are allowed access to The Horde, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, and Maztica for FR DM Guild. But they don't explain how much of the canon material and mechanics can be edited.

Are we allowed to add new mechanics? Can we add, but unspoken to not get carried away, yet no guidelines? Or is it all handwaved into a flat 5e SRD baseline mechanics?

As I understand it 'canon' exists... but since Maztica (and the rest) have not had full blown writeups for DECADES - only mere mentions, you have carte blanche to develop whatever you think works with canon in consideration. You obviously can't ignore canon per se, but you can write around it just like they did. Halruaa destroyed in 4e! ZOMG - 5e - Nah! Halruaa just did the dimensional Lindy-hop for a century, now it's back! BOOM. Ironically, that's *EXACTLY* what happened to Maztica too. SO... Mr. Opaopajr. Tell us - what changed? See? Get writing!

Sub-systems. This is a bit trickier. There hasn't been a definitive answer. But if you're doing Forgotten Realms material just make sure the sub-systems are plugged into your Realm's specific work and let'er rip. One of our longterm projects involves doing a lot of new sub-systems for magic and stuff, but I'm thinking if we get to that we might do it OGL and not through the Guild. In your case, I think you have full reason to create a new sub-system for the Maztican casters as long as you do it in a way that honors the intent of FR's magic cosmology (the Weave etc.). I think what would really make Maztica pop is the ecology of the place itself. Screw it - give the Maztican T-rexes to ride. Go crazy with the Quetzal motifs not just symbolically but culturally. Yeah - have some dwarves and Amn naval troops show up with their fancy armor and swords... and then the Maztican air-force riding on feathered serpents from their extradimensional homeland newly repopulated on their continent and THRIVING arrive, alongside whatever new allies etc. to give them a welcome they won't long remember.

Quote from: Opaopajr;874623(Ideally the cleanest solution is use 5e SRD spells, but with a different cultural favortism for certain classes and magic schools.)

Yes that would be clean. But we both know that's probably too safe, don't you think? There's a good middle-ground where you can really make it pop. And I'm having the same discussions about Kara-Tur. So you're not alone

Quote from: Snowman0147;874627Maybe you should do those settings RPGPundit?  I mean Arrows of India is possibly the only book I know that deals with mythical India.  Certainly you can master those regions of the Forgotten Realms.

Arrows of Indra 5e - under the OGL would require *nothing* to publish. Shoe-horning it into the FR would seem odd as there is no direct analog to India in the FR. Not only that - but by placing AoI in FR there might be some IP issues for Pundy that would require legal answers.

But OGL? You should be good to go (and it sounds like a good idea to me)

Isn't FR DM Guild timeline agnostic, too? It never stated it had to adhere to the current Adventure League calendar. And they said all the backlog matrial is open, soooo?

I can ignore the Spellplague! (Or just make it a paragraph or page addendum!)

Quote from: Opaopajr;874693Isn't FR DM Guild timeline agnostic, too? It never stated it had to adhere to the current Adventure League calendar. And they said all the backlog matrial is open, soooo?

I can ignore the Spellplague! (Or just make it a paragraph or page addendum!)

Go for it. Goodluck.

Quote from: Opaopajr;874693Isn't FR DM Guild timeline agnostic, too? It never stated it had to adhere to the current Adventure League calendar. And they said all the backlog matrial is open, soooo?

I can ignore the Spellplague! (Or just make it a paragraph or page addendum!)

It doesn't say you have to. That said, the question then becomes how far off their reservation do you want to drive? I'm using their Sword Coast Adventures Guide as the "new baseline" for FR (obviously you don't have to). I figure the closer to cleave to that, the better you are for one good reason: it gives you a good springboard to *really* give the changes Maztica needs to make it more interesting and fun.

If we're to assume the current status quo is the baseline - Maztica has spent the better part of the last century back on its home planet. To me, that your excuse to re-design Maztica to its fullest potential. I say this is a gift that literally requires no explanation other than what you deem works. So make it happen, Cap'n.

Funny thing - one of my friends is leaving to go to Honduras tomorrow. He's going to take a buncha pics of Mayan ruins for me. When he gets back I'll slide them to you for inspiration.

Quote from: Opaopajr;874693Isn't FR DM Guild timeline agnostic, too?

Yes...with a caveat.

There was a mention about FR products that weave into the current Adventure League campaign would somehow get priority focus.

So you can definitely put your stuff in 1e FR's setting, but stuff in 5e's FR setting will be promoted by OBS.

Quote from: tenbones;874599But I'll say this - there is a *reason* that Kara-Tur, Maztica and Al-Qadim fell out of print. I'm not saying it's based on inherent racism (I would never go that far) but I've found a lot of unease when trying to get my groups to go to Kara-Tur or Al-Qadim or Maztica specifically, because of the inherent exoticness of the cultures.

I'd say that a common trait in all three is that all of them are really bad presentations of the cultures they're allegedly based on, founded more on middle-class American 80s-level knowledge and ideas about the worlds, in most cases stripped of some of their core elements(i.e. al-qadim being an arabia without Islam), or made into mishmashes of incoherency (kara-tur being a ridiculous mix of Japan, China, and old Kung-Fu episodes).


When a culture is done right (like in Arrows of Indra) it does well.

Quote from: Snowman0147;874627Maybe you should do those settings RPGPundit?  I mean Arrows of India is possibly the only book I know that deals with mythical India.  Certainly you can master those regions of the Forgotten Realms.

If I wanted to do the Middle-East, China, or Mesoamerica, I would do them without these settings, which have WAY too much baggage.

Quote from: RPGPundit;875255I'd say that a common trait in all three is that all of them are really bad presentations of the cultures they're allegedly based on, founded more on middle-class American 80s-level knowledge and ideas about the worlds, in most cases stripped of some of their core elements(i.e. al-qadim being an arabia without Islam), or made into mishmashes of incoherency (kara-tur being a ridiculous mix of Japan, China, and old Kung-Fu episodes).

I don't know any of those settings well enough to say they're good or bad but that complaint certainly stands for most Tolkienesque Eurofantasy settings as well... Christianity removed (but many of its trappings left behind) and various nationalities paved over and stirred together.
Is it an objectively bad process if you're not going for any sort of historical accuracy and just use 'rule of cool' in your borrowings?