So one thing that is obvious from reading the rules for OD&D is that in design it was meant to be a total black box.  Players don't even roll up their own characters, let alone roll to-hit, damage, or saves!  But it seems to me that this must have changed in actual practice fairly early on.

My question for Gronan is -- at what point did D&D break out of the black box?  Were you rolling your own characters, to-hit rolls, etc. during the pre-release Greyhawk games?  When did that become standard practice in Lake Geneva, if ever?

Quote from: Iosue;869423So one thing that is obvious from reading the rules for OD&D is that in design it was meant to be a total black box.

The obviousness you refer to eludes me. Got a few quotes?

The only obvious thing that comes to my mind is that the referee rolls ability scores.

One might infer however from the reference to players perhaps having acquired the booklets to get a leg up in a campaign (and the suggestion to pencil in whatever house rules one might learn) that a lot of people had been playing before publication with at least a significant portion hidden.

The Example of Play might further suggest that player knowledge of details was largely (if not wholly) limited to that acquired in play, which might eventually include a fair bit of lore about what sorts of magic items had been found yet not encompass precise mapping of various dice tosses to results.

Tim Kask laments in Supplement III the effect that proliferation of the books among players has had. Gary Gygax in the AD&D DMG suggests that discovering how things work and what might be encountered is a key part of the fun, an experience of which novices should not be deprived for the sake of the old hands.

Here's an image of the OD&D character sheet TSR produced:

This shows at least a different attitude than the AD&D sheets!

Quote from: Phillip;869459Here's an image of the OD&D character sheet TSR produced:
This shows at least a different attitude than the AD&D sheets!

How so? Looks just like my home-made AD&D character sheets?

Quote from: Bren;869446The obviousness you refer to eludes me. Got a few quotes?

Book 1 has this?

QuoteDETERMINATION OF ABILITIES:
Prior to character selection by players it is necessary for the referee to roll three six-sided dice in order to rate each as to the various abilities, and thus aid them in selecting a role.

I glanced around and did not see any mention of players rolling their own stats. They rolled their own HP and attacks far as I can tell.

Quote from: Omega;869494I glanced around and did not see any mention of players rolling their own stats. They rolled their own HP and attacks far as I can tell.

Thanks. I didn't remember that line. We always had the player roll their own. Similar to...well it was the seventies after all.

It sounds like the intent was for the referee to hand out a set of stats to the players who would then choose a race and class and play what they got. Conceptually it seems similar to a referee determining the numbers and types of figures, the terrain, order of entry or set up, and the victory conditions for a miniatures battle prior to two groups of players playing out the resulting scenario.

In regards to whether or not having the referee roll the scores made the game more or less of a black box, I note that the full quote is the following (bolding added for emphasis).

QuoteDETERMINATION OF ABILITIES:
Prior to character selection by players it is necessary for the referee to roll three six-sided dice in order to rate each as to the various abilities, and thus aid them in selecting a role. Categories of ability are: Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, Dexterity, and Charisma. Each player notes his appropriate scores, obtains a similar roll of three dice to determine the number of Gold Pieces (Dice score x 10) he starts with, and then opts for a role. A sample record of a character appears like this:

Obviously the player's scores are not a black box since the player himself makes a notation of his scores.

That's not to say that common mode of thought at the time was that limiting player knowledge to character knowledge was a desirable outcome of the game process. We discussed having the referee handle the rolls for attacks, the hit points, and the damage taken so that the player would not know exact numbers. The referee would provide some general guidance on how damaged the PC was and the player might deduce die rolls from effects and a knowledge of the underlying tables. In the end, we decided that without computerizing the game the logistics of managing this were too unweildy to implemnt.

Quote from: Bren;869515Obviously the player's scores are not a black box since the player himself makes a notation of his scores.

Exactly. How can the player choose a class if they dont know their own stats?

DM: "Ok, choice A is kinda weak but a little nimble. Choice B is really smart and fairly tough."

Quote from: Omega;869490How so? Looks just like my home-made AD&D character sheets?

Official AD&D sheet:

Thats obviously not my home-made character sheet... ahem.

So they made class targets all inclusive character sheets. So what?

The OD&D sheet would end up with some of that as well. Written in on the margins or back. Saves, to-hits, turning, etc.

Later ones were less elaborate. Then later ones more. Then less and so on. TSR swung all over the place in detail vs non for those things alone.

Quote from: Omega;869522Exactly. How can the player choose a class if they dont know their own stats?

Blindly. I'd have thought that was also obvious.

I've been reading the book Empire of the Imagination, the biography of Gary Gygax. It does mention that in the early D&D days the DM made all the to-hit rolls, and I'm guessing saving throws and everything else. I suspect that died quickly in '74 or '75.

My view is that the text of D&D of any editions are divided into broad categories, advice, rules, tools. Having the referee roll abilities for the player is more advice than a rule.

What the difference between advice and a rule? A rule helps to adjudicate some specific situation. For example roll 1d20, consult this chart, cross index the character level, and armor class. If the roll is equal to or higher than the number then a hit is scored.

Advice is about how to run the game. For example about having the players funnel what they are doing through a caller who will do most of the talking to the referee.

Having the referee roll the player's ability is advice on how to run the game.

Now with the caller rule, it obvious from various accounts that Gygax and Arneson ran sessions with a dozen or more players. I can personally state that having a caller or two helps the game a lot when you have that many players. Helps in that game runs smoother and stuff gets done.

But having a caller does little for smaller groups and probably reduces the fun of the game. Since over the years, RPG groups have averaged 3 to 4 players to a referee, the use of a callers has been relegated to obscurity.

There is probably a good reason why Gygax gave that advice. I personally can't think of anything I read as why he would do that. The best one I think of is that perhaps he ran into too much cheating and this was the best way of counter acting that. Perhaps there were a few honestly lucky players that caused a lot of resentment so everybody felt it was fair if only the referee rolled the stats.

Regardless of the advice's origin, the situation has changed so the idea of having the referee roll the PCs stats has been relegated to obscurity in the hobby.

My advice is to figure out how it came about and decide whether the reason are pertinent to your group's situation. For example once I understood why advice about callers was in the game, I was able to handle larger groups much easier. So if I had say 12 players in a session I would divide them up into two or three groups and have a caller for each.

Advice though is usualy placed in the Options/Variants section of an RPG. "Heres a few things that might be done differently.

The DM rolls the character rule is presented as a rule. It is not presented as advice.

Quote from: Omega;869670Advice though is usualy placed in the Options/Variants section of an RPG. "Heres a few things that might be done differently.

The DM rolls the character rule is presented as a rule. It is not presented as advice.

I submit the line in OD&D between what is merely advice and what was intended as a rule is not that clear, nor was it intended to be that clear. It was assumed that a referee would make whatever changes seemed good to them. To that extent everything in OD&D is advice and stronger advice.

It's funny that is the rule as written as I don't recall a referee ever rolling the stats for the PCs. I also can't recall any conscious decision to change the rules, I suspect the change occurred naturally because while referees found rolling up PCs as a minor bookkeeping chore, the players actually enjoyed rolling the dice for their PC's stats. Since the player records their own stats (so long as dice and rolling is fair) it's pointless who does the rolling.