Overlapping party roles?

Ravenswing · December 01, 2015, 02:07:49 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;866361I thought of the caller concept, but isn't that just what the GM should be doing anyway? It just adds an extra buffer between the problem but doesn't change anything.

Plus what I'd expect is that guy who never shuts up is just going to do the same thing when everyone is trying to coordinate with the caller. Or do you mean the caller actively goes around the table and polls each player, then picks the majority option or something?

It really becomes a problem when you combine the first type of overbearing player with the second type who doesn't enjoy having to constantly police him. Then the game becomes a chore.

All excellent points, and large parts of the reason why the "caller" concept was one of the earliest features of D&D to be near-to-universally dustbinned.

Beyond that, it was something of the same issue as with overbearing players today. People want to play the game for themselves, not just roll dice when told to do so and let someone else do all the playing.

Ravenswing · December 01, 2015, 02:19:54 AM

Quote from: Omega;866474What the hell happened to the days when having several fighters in a group was a good thing? Or having an all thief party? People have been playing this just fine since the get-go.

Apparently at some point players started getting territorial of "their class" shtick and things like teamwork and backups or, god forbid, thinking, went out the window.

Heck, I'm running an all-magician party right now, and knew going in that the setup would result in blowing unforeseen holes through my scenarios. :hatsoff:

A major -- and often overlooked -- factor in the evolution of "niche protection" as a concept was the popularization of commercial "modules." When they usually came with not only a couple sentences (often emphasized enough to put on the cover of the product) detailing the level, numbers and types of characters for whom they were purportedly designed, but generally with problems that could only be solved one way, and DMs were increasingly pressured to run the things straight ...

If you had to get through the trapped door to continue on the adventure, then you Needed A Thief. If you had to get through the horde of minions to continue the adventure, the fighting skill of the group be damned, then you Needed A Cleric.

Omega · December 01, 2015, 09:05:01 AM

Luckily I never saw any of those. Sounds like bad module design to put in an element that specifically needs a class present to advance. What happens if the Thief gets offed before you get to the trapped door? If there is no way for the rest of the group to find it, disarm it, or smash through it. Then that is really bad design and not a fault of the game itself.

I know there are modules that suggest you have XYZ class present. But never seen one that says you must have a class present. (Aside from the class focused modules.)

Exploderwizard · December 01, 2015, 01:20:39 PM

Quote from: Bren;866442I have seen the occasional Arnold Horshack player. (If you are too young to remember Welcome Back Kotter. Horshak is the guy who raises his hand and keeps saying Me. Me! ME! until he gets to do something. Anything.) So Horshak races up to first aid your character but he isn't a medic, which means his PC is shit for first aid, so he puts a tourniquet around your favorite character's neck to slow the bleeding from his head wound.

:rotfl:

How funny would that be if your character was a minotaur?

Ravenswing · December 01, 2015, 05:53:11 PM

Quote from: Omega;866508Luckily I never saw any of those. Sounds like bad module design to put in an element that specifically needs a class present to advance. What happens if the Thief gets offed before you get to the trapped door? If there is no way for the rest of the group to find it, disarm it, or smash through it. Then that is really bad design and not a fault of the game itself.

I'm not sure I agree; there's only so much stuff you can write into an adventure -- which generally work on strict page counts. The fault is more with the game companies who don't push the premise that the GM has the absolute right to change or create anything he or she wants, and that 'modules' aren't inviolable holy writ set in concrete.

Omega · December 01, 2015, 06:13:23 PM

That then is bad design and bad direction. Which unfortunately TSR had no corner on the market of.

Lack of playtesting can be another problem. No one to spot that there is a bottleneck.

Or even as simple a problem as the writer just assuming the DM was intelligent enough to tweak a module if it didnt quite fit their campaign without the writer having to hold their hand and explain that "yes Timmy. You can change stuff."

Back on topic.

If you have two negotiators in the group for example.
Surely one is better at X and the other at Y? Or one is better at X than the other. Ask why are they wrestling for the limelight? Whats the point?

Or have the NPC react to this jockying negatively because real people sure do.

Exploderwizard · December 02, 2015, 03:18:52 PM

Quote from: Ravenswing;866563I'm not sure I agree; there's only so much stuff you can write into an adventure -- which generally work on strict page counts. The fault is more with the game companies who don't push the premise that the GM has the absolute right to change or create anything he or she wants, and that 'modules' aren't inviolable holy writ set in concrete.

The real issue with too many published adventures these day is that they are NOT modules.

Many published adventures these days are little more than canned stories, almost script like to be played through to a pre-determined conclusion punctuated by occasional die rolls for a bit of color.

The art of scenario design is becoming lost. A scenario doesn't channel PCs through a prescribed challenge gauntlet, assuming triumph on the race towards the inevitable exciting conclusion.

Fuck that. If I wanted a complete story then I would have purchased a novel.

Omega · December 02, 2015, 05:33:48 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard;866668The real issue with too many published adventures these day is that they are NOT modules.

Many published adventures these days are little more than canned stories, almost script like to be played through to a pre-determined conclusion punctuated by occasional die rolls for a bit of color.

The art of scenario design is becoming lost. A scenario doesn't channel PCs through a prescribed challenge gauntlet, assuming triumph on the race towards the inevitable exciting conclusion.

Fuck that. If I wanted a complete story then I would have purchased a novel.

Exactly. Many older modules also had a plot. But the players were free to approach that plot however they could. Possibly even bypassing parts of said plot. The general idea was that once the players enguaged the start of the plot that they would hit at least a few of the points along the way. Or that by dint of the action. Some things are likely to happen later.

More linear adventures can be viable as long as they still allow for leeway.

AsenRG · December 05, 2015, 04:37:46 PM

I just want to note that there are only two solutions to overbearing players that I've seen to work reliantly, and both are best implemented as a GM, but might be used by another player as well.
First, if the player isn't doing it maliciously, but is just new, "calm down and let other people take a turn".
Second, if the player is doing it consciously, "shut up and let other people play, too, and by Sol Invictus, don't try to play anyone else's character".

Gronan of Simmerya · December 05, 2015, 04:51:23 PM

Quote from: AsenRG;867305I just want to note that there are only two solutions to overbearing players that I've seen to work reliantly, and both are best implemented as a GM, but might be used by another player as well.
First, if the player isn't doing it maliciously, but is just new, "calm down and let other people take a turn".
Second, if the player is doing it consciously, "shut up and let other people play, too, and by Sol Invictus, don't try to play anyone else's character".

Yeah.

Once again, the answer is "the normal amount of social skills an adult should have."

RunningLaser · December 05, 2015, 08:11:36 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867308Yeah.

Once again, the answer is "the normal amount of social skills an adult should have."

Which apparently is a fucking rarity in this hobby.

Omega · December 05, 2015, 10:08:14 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867308Yeah.

Once again, the answer is "the normal amount of social skills an adult should have."

No no no!

You are supposed to send a fire resistant troll to kill the character out of the blue so the player, who has no fucking clue why the troll killed them because YOU DIDNT JUST SAY, will "learn his lesson."

argh!

Is it so hard to just say "Hey? Are you aware you are messing with the other player? Could you tone it down a little or a-lot?"

yosemitemike · December 05, 2015, 11:13:38 PM

Quote from: Omega;867388Is it so hard to just say "Hey? Are you aware you are messing with the other player? Could you tone it down a little or a-lot?"

These are the people who deal with a problem player not by telling the guy to stop being a problem or stop playing but by saying they are stopping the game and then moving it to another time and place but not telling that guy. Apparently, it is so hard.

AsenRG · December 07, 2015, 02:42:02 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867308Yeah.

Once again, the answer is "the normal amount of social skills an adult should have."

I'd expect the same from many teenagers, but mostly yeah;).

Elfdart · December 07, 2015, 11:15:40 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;865631How do you deal with the problem where the party has 2 characters that fill the same role? Like 2 characters that are both "the diplomacy guys," and that makes one of them feel irrelevant?

Do you make one player change theirs? Redo their sheet? In this case, both are attached to their current characters. Is there a way to thread this needle without forcing the two to get rid of their characters?

Why do you assume it's a problem?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865702All of these. It has never, ever been a problem in 43 years. Of course, I've never seen a character that was good ONLY at one thing, either.

I've seen a few really shitty players whose characters aren't very good at the one thing they stick to. Some can be coached up, but the rest are just shitty players.

Quote from: Omega;866474What the hell happened to the days when having several fighters in a group was a good thing? Or having an all thief party? People have been playing this just fine since the get-go.

Apparently at some point players started getting territorial of "their class" shtick and things like teamwork and backups or, god forbid, thinking, went out the window.

I've played in parties where everyone was a fighter, thief or one of the sub-classes. It was a lot of tense fun knowing there was no medic -I mean cleric- to tend the wounded; and no mage to blast the enemy with fire and lightning.