I've having a bit of a closer look at 5e given all the praise for it that I'm hearing. But one thing strikes me as really out of whack. To get from 1st to 2nd level, PCs need only 300 xp. Compare that with the B/X thief (the class that levels most rapidly), which needs 1,200 xp to get to 2nd level. What's going on here? Can someone explain how 5e handles xp and level advancement in such a way that it doesn't make it seem like a gimme?

As I understand it, levels 1 & 2 are seen more as an "apprenticeship," while the real game starts at level 3. Many more XP's are needed to raise levels after that.

I think its hard to get a grasp on leveling in 5e versus B/X because in 5e your gaining xp under the 2e killing monsters structure rather than the B/X looting coin structure.

I have a graph charted out and the 5e EXP curve actually follows the AD&D curve to a fair degree. Moreso than I ever expected. It is just less number crunching. Knock off a zero or two off AD&D's EXP needs and they mesh.

Up to level 5 they climb about the same. Then from level 6-11 it accellerates. Then it slows down until 17 and then accellerates again. 5es cuve is closest to the clerics progression curve for a while.

Keep in mind that the EXP from monsters in 5e is a little different AND you do not get EXP for treasure.

BUT.

The stated goal of 5e was a game where you could go from 1-20 in a single years campaign. The initial levelling is quick. Then it slows down more and more as you get to the higher levels. But it is still quick even with the lack of treasure EXP.

It is one aspect I am not quite so fond of. It works though so cant complain too much.

The XP system as written is indeed a fast leveling structure. Levels 1 and 2 are designed to last only a single adventure session each.

Even after that if you play according to standard guidelines the PCs will reach level 20 in perhaps less than a year of game time IF you insert downtime between adventures. If not then it can take as little as a few months.

Luckily, XP is the easiest sub-system to rip out and completely replace with one of your own choosing.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;860606The XP system as written is indeed a fast leveling structure. Levels 1 and 2 are designed to last only a single adventure session each.

Even after that if you play according to standard guidelines the PCs will reach level 20 in perhaps less than a year of game time IF you insert downtime between adventures. If not then it can take as little as a few months.

Luckily, XP is the easiest sub-system to rip out and completely replace with one of your own choosing.

LOL level 20 in less than a year? How the times have changed.

you dont even need to rip it out. Just add a zero at the end of every levels EXP needs and it maps more or less to the AD&D clerics progression which is about the middle between the speed of the thief and the slowness of the magic user.

And in AD&D the MU was till level 10 the second fastest class to level up.

In several threads around the net, I've read that there are frequent mid-combat resurrections in 5e? Is PC permadeath infrequent in 5e?

That (and the rule some groups use where dead PCs mean you roll up a new one at the current "party level") seems like it would also make the game expect to shoot PCs up to high levels (as opposed to some of them dying and starting new level one characters).

Quote from: Skarg;860611In several threads around the net, I've read that there are frequent mid-combat resurrections in 5e? Is PC permadeath infrequent in 5e?

That (and the rule some groups use where dead PCs mean you roll up a new one at the current "party level") seems like it would also make the game expect to shoot PCs up to high levels (as opposed to some of them dying and starting new level one characters).

There's a 3rd level (i.e, gained a 5th) resurrection spell available to Clerics, but you could easily ban that spell if you did not care for it.

Quote from: Skarg;860611In several threads around the net, I've read that there are frequent mid-combat resurrections in 5e? Is PC permadeath infrequent in 5e?

That (and the rule some groups use where dead PCs mean you roll up a new one at the current "party level") seems like it would also make the game expect to shoot PCs up to high levels (as opposed to some of them dying and starting new level one characters).

For my 5E campaigns I do replacement characters by tiers. If the party is level 1-5 then new characters start at 1st level. If the party is level 6-10 then new characters start at level 6.

I've been running a 5e campaign online most of this year. 40 sessions; highest level PC just reached 9th.

It talks about expected levelling rate in the DMG: 1 session each for levels 1 & 2,  2-3 sessions/level thereafter. My own game rate is about half that due to the text-chat format.
It's about twice as fast as AD&D I'd say (eg my 45 session AD&D online game only saw PCs reach 5th level, although I did have another one where a PC reached 5th in only 20 sessions), but with a similar curve. The big difference is the minimal XP needed for the first two levels; it slows down from 3rd, and levels 6-10 go much slower. The XP chart is designed to speed progression up again after 10th, much as AD&D's did - since XP to advance after 9th remained static while awards increased.

Another thing worth noting is the shallower power curve in 5e; the 7th-9th level PCs IMC don't feel 'high level', they feel mid-level, still threatened by mundane foes, more like 4th-6th in 1e I'd say. So although PCs level up quicker than in 1e, they don't get more powerful quicker; it's about the same.

Quote from: Omega;860605Up to level 5 they climb about the same. Then from level 6-11 it accellerates. Then it slows down until 17 and then accellerates again.

That doesn't seem right at all. I've seen very fast advancement 1-3, fast 4-5, moderate 6-9. Here's the chart - note the amount needed to level drops from 21000 10-11 to 15000 11-12. Apparently the fast progressions in Tier 1 (1-4) and Tier 3 (11-16) is deliberate, as is the slower progression in the Tier 2 (5-10) "sweet spot".

Level: XP Proficiency
1: 0      +2     (300 to level)
2: 300   +2    (600 to level)
3: 900   +2  (1800 to level)
4: 2700 +2  (3800 to level)
5: 6500 +3  (7500 to level)
6: 14000 +3 (9000 to level)
7: 23000 +3 (11000 to level)
8: 34000 +3 (14000 to level)
9: 48000 +4 (16000 to level)
10: 64000 +4 (21000 to level)

11: 85,000 11 +4 (15000 to level)
12: 100,000 12 +4 (20000 to level)
13: 120,000 13 +5 (20000 to level)
14: 140,000 14 +5 (25000 to level)
15: 165,000 15 +5 (30000 to level)
16: 195,000 16 +5 (30000 to level)
17: 225,000 17 +6 (40000 to level)
18: 265,000 18 +6 (40000 to level)
19: 305,000 19 +6 (50000 to level)
20: 355,000 20 +6 (30000 per Bonus*)

Quote from: Exploderwizard;860614For my 5E campaigns I do replacement characters by tiers. If the party is level 1-5 then new characters start at 1st level. If the party is level 6-10 then new characters start at level 6.

I do tier-based (1, 5, 11, 17) for new PCs; I'm now allowing players to bring in PCs with half the XP of their deceased PC, eg session before last we lost a Warlock-8; replacement was a Cleric-6.

The lethality rate in my 5e game seems pretty similar to my other D&D games of various editions (high level 4e has the lowest lethality).

BTW the 5e DMG discusses replacement PCs, says that you can either keep everyone the same level, or a 3-level gap is fine too. That fits my experience - with 4e & Pathfinder I have 1 party XP tally and everyone the same level, but 5e is fine with a few levels difference between PCs, probably moreso than pre-3e even.

I actually did some tables for this and the previous 2 Wizards editions when 5E came out to look at this. Here is the experience needed for each experience level:

TOTAL XP NEEDED:
Level 3E 4E 5E
1 0 0 0
2 1000 1000 300
3 3000 2250 900
4 6000 3750 2700
5 10000 5500 6500
6 15000 7500 14000
7 21000 10000 23000
8 28000 13000 34000
9 36000 16500 48000
10 45000 20500 64000
11 55000 26000 85000
12 66000 32000 100000
13 78000 39000 120000
14 91000 47000 140000
15 105000 57000 165000
16 120000 69000 195000
17 136000 83000 225000
18 153000 99000 265000
19 171000 119000 305000
20 190000 143000 355000
And here's the chart of the experience needed for each individual level increase:
INCREASE FROM PREVIOUS LEVEL:
Level 3E 4E 5E
1>2 1000 1000 300
2>3 2000 1250 600
3>4 3000 1500 1800
4>5 4000 1750 3800
5>6 5000 2000 7500
6>7 6000 2500 9000
7>8 7000 3000 11000
8>9 8000 3500 14000
9>10 9000 4000 16000
10>11 10000 5500 21000
11>12 11000 6000 15000
12>13 12000 7000 20000
13>14 13000 8000 20000
14>15 14000 10000 25000
15>16 15000 12000 30000
16>17 16000 14000 30000
17>18 17000 16000 40000
18>19 18000 20000 40000
19>20 19000 24000 50000
Obvious caveat here is that 4E is built on a level 1-30 scale rather than a 1-20 scale, but even so it's quite clear that once you hit level 5, 4E actually ends up with a much slower level progression than any previous Wizards of the Coast edition of D&D.

You could also quite easily swap out the level targets for levels 1-5 for 5E with the ones for 3E if you want to slow down the level progression early on. This is a trivially easy part of the game to adjust to taste.

Weird. My 5e campaign is about to reach 1 year old and we played nearly every two weeks. The highest level the PCs have reached is 6th.

And, for the record, I don't bother with CR. If the PCs accidentally come face to face with a Vampire, Storm Giant or Mummy at levels 2-4 (which has happened) that's just it. No character deaths yet.