Quote from: TristramEvans;850131You said it. I'd say it was the dumbest thing I've heard online today, but I was just reading a story about Frank Missler...

Same here, except for me, it's the Trump sound bites coming my social network feeds.

I hate the entire fucking chargen process.  If it takes more time then 3d6 in order six times it's stupidly overcomplicated.

I'd rather have a colonoscopy.  And yes, I have data.

Quote from: Bren;850149No. It depends how high you toss the coin and how long your shake the dice.

assuming you just do the bare minimum required:

coin toss: place coin on thumb, flick thumb, catch coin
dice: pick up dice and roll it on table

granted, anyone could extend either to any span of time

Quote from: Phillip;850121"Same overall playstyle and goals" presumably already includes a shared opinion as to the proper priorities of how to spend time. That makes your claim basically meaningless.

FASTEST GAME POSSIBLE (first approximation):
1) Toss coin.
2) Heads = you win.
3) Tails = you lose.

That rule set is also about as brief and easy to understand as you'll find.

But is it really optimal? Evidently not, since hardly anyone actually prefers it.

Please explain how your proposed fastest system meets dude's criteria of doing everything that system B (ADnD) does.  Because it sounds like you are arguing against something that nobody claimed.

Quote from: jibbajibba;849992If creating characters is fun it doesn't need to be fast. I don't get this "I want chargen to be fast so I can start playing" thing. I want chargen to be fun because I am already playing.

Likewise for combat, encounters, puzzles and trap and I the rest of it. Rpgs aren't supposed to be a race to see who can get to the end quickest. Its all about the journey.

Yep, pretty much this. As I've extensively played the last 3 editions of the game I've come to the conclusion that combat which takes less than 10 minutes isnt worth the time to roll up the dice and combat that takes over an hour is probably too long. A nice middle ground between 20 to 40 minutes (given or take 5) is our groups preferable wheel house.

As for Chargen, depends on level and allowed supplements. I can make a 1st level 4e character (theme and all) in about 10 min with the program. Takes a bit longer if I do it without the program because writing it down just takes longer.

Quote from: Ulairi;850128This is really fucking stupid. AD&D is a faster and lighter system than 3.x and 4E. You're nuts.

Here's the 20 page summary of how initiative works in AD&D 1st Edition.

Basically nobody actually plays AD&D.

Many people believe they are. Virtually all of them are deceiving themselves.

What most people are playing is a version of Basic D&D with a couple of bits form the AD&D core rulebooks grafted on. (These bits almost always include selecting race and class separately. They only rarely include weapon speed factors, and they virtually never include all the rules for weapon speed factors.) The version of Basic D&D might be the one they started with; or it might be the one that their DM (or their DM's original DM) started with. But it's still Basic D&D with a couple of bits from AD&D.

Not using weapon speeds is like ignoring the chart with modifiers for weapon type vs. AC.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850234I hate the entire fucking chargen process.  If it takes more time then 3d6 in order six times it's stupidly overcomplicated.

I'd rather have a colonoscopy.  And yes, I have data.

Of your colonoscopy?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;850288Basically nobody actually plays AD&D.

Playing the game RAW and playing the game as intended are two entirely different things.

So, I reject your premise.

Quote from: TristramEvans;850315Playing the game RAW and playing the game as intended are two entirely different things.

So, I reject your premise.

I reject anything he says on this, simply because he claims AD&D 2e sucks.  No game sucks.

Quote from: TristramEvans;850315Playing the game RAW and playing the game as intended are two entirely different things.

  Weren't some of those infamous Gygax editorials in Dragon about the conceit that the two were the same thing?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;850325I reject anything he says on this, simply because he claims AD&D 2e sucks.  No game sucks.

F.A.T.A.L
Poison'd
Maid
4E D&D
Space Opera
d20 Gamma World

I can go on.....

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;850332Weren't some of those infamous Gygax editorials in Dragon about the conceit that the two were the same thing?

My theory is that TSR being inundated with D&D questions, the practical issues in running competitive D&D tournaments, and a lack of empathy for some styles of playing D&D combined to create the rules are the bible attitude of Gygax's Dragon Magazine articles.

The biggest factor was probably all the damn questions and phone calls than the other two.

Reading through the various anecdotes,  Playing at the World, and Hawk & Moor I am left with the impression that early TSR in one respect was a place under siege beset with similar issues as when a forum starts getting 100 times the traffic and only have one or two moderators.

Also leaking through was some disbelief of that some questions were even being asked as the staff considered the answer blatantly obvious.

The problem in my view with how it was all handled was that the fix was "better" rules as opposed to come up with a better way to teach people how to use the rules. Granted OD&D needed a lot better presentation a lot of rules clarification so some rules work was unavoidable.

For me it wasn't until reading Matt Finch Old School Primer that I felt I mastered the D&D rules. The primer didn't have any rules in it but it effectively taught me HOW Matt Finch used the D&D rules which opened my mind as to how to use the classic D&D rules in the way I like.

I think if things went down this route the industry would have been better off than what we had. The attitude the next edition's rules are better and will fix everything is wrong today.

Again I don't think that the older rules are beyond reproach and are the best.   Only that focus should be on figuring out better ways of teaching people to be the referee and player that they want to be regardless of the actual rules being used. And with the ongoing impact of the internet and computers on the industry, we are already in the golden age for this for all RPGs and to just the older editions of games.

Quote from: estar;850341My theory is that TSR being inundated with D&D questions, the practical issues in running competitive D&D tournaments, and a lack of empathy for some styles of playing D&D combined to create the rules are the bible attitude of Gygax's Dragon Magazine articles.

I can tell you that this is indeed the case.  Rob Kuntz and Jim Ward are still rattling around, ask them if you don't believe me.

By mid 1975 TSR was receiving dozens of letters per week about D&D.  Dave and Gary were gobsmacked; Vol 3 plainly said "decide how you want it to be, and then make it just that way," but people wanted to have the "right" answers.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;850288Here's the 20 page summary of how initiative works in AD&D 1st Edition.

Basically nobody actually plays AD&D.

Many people believe they are. Virtually all of them are deceiving themselves.

What most people are playing is a version of Basic D&D with a couple of bits form the AD&D core rulebooks grafted on. (These bits almost always include selecting race and class separately. They only rarely include weapon speed factors, and they virtually never include all the rules for weapon speed factors.) The version of Basic D&D might be the one they started with; or it might be the one that their DM (or their DM's original DM) started with. But it's still Basic D&D with a couple of bits from AD&D.

Those aren't the rules for AD&D 2e. And it too is labeled AD&D. 2e Core rules are Group d10 v. Group d10, add Group mod.

Group initiative with Individual modifier is optional, just like Individual initiative with Individual modifier -- and that's where weapons speeds are located. Yes, Weapon Speed is optional just as the Weapon v. Armor table is optional. All those widgets start in the 'Off' position in 2e.