Is it the weekend yet?
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Quote from: Greentongue;844531Is it the weekend yet?
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It is in South Dakota. In Asia the weekend is already over. I've no idea what day it is in Jakalla.

This whole thing can be completed very simply by rolling on an NPC reaction table.

2-5 negative reaction
6-8 uncertain
9-12 positive reaction

Once the initial NPC reaction is determined the conversation proceeds through roleplaying.  Major changes in the conversation (insults, complements, payments, etc) call for another roll with an appropriate bonus or penalty.  Note that you do not roll after every damn sentence.

That's all the rules you need for ANY interaction between player characters and NPCs.

Yes, I utterly, completely loathe and despise rules for things like "fast talk" or "diplomacy" or "negotiation" or "bluff."

And this rule applies for far more than just talking.  If you want to make some sarcastic quip to aggravate your opponent into making a foolish attack, just roll above, accounting for the quality of the quip.

You may note that this does not coddle or handhold players who want to play well spoken or glib characters but are not that way themselves.  This is a feature, not a bug.  Diplomacy does not coddle players who are not good at negotiation and intrigue, neither should you.

People should learn to play, not whine that the game is too hard.

Quote from: Bren;844545It is in South Dakota. In Asia the weekend is already over. I've no idea what day it is in Jakalla.

In my Jakalla, the week-end is nearly over;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844555Yes, I utterly, completely loathe and despise rules for things like "fast talk" or "diplomacy" or "negotiation" or "bluff."

I think they are useful when it is not clear what the outcome would be.
The biggest down side in my opinion is that it constrains players into thinking they can't even try something they have no skill at.
The "rolling for every sentence" is just crazy talk.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844555You may note that this does not coddle or handhold players who want to play well spoken or glib characters but are not that way themselves.  This is a feature, not a bug.  Diplomacy does not coddle players who are not good at negotiation and intrigue, neither should you.

People should learn to play, not whine that the game is too hard.

The idea of playing a character that is YOU just in a different world, only appeals to some.
For those that want to have a character that is NOT them, "crutches" are helpful.
I agree that you will never get better if you depend on a crutch but, such is the choice you make.
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Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844555This whole thing can be completed very simply by rolling on an NPC reaction table.

2-5 negative reaction
6-8 uncertain
9-12 positive reaction

Once the initial NPC reaction is determined the conversation proceeds through roleplaying.  Major changes in the conversation (insults, complements, payments, etc) call for another roll with an appropriate bonus or penalty.  Note that you do not roll after every damn sentence.

That's all the rules you need for ANY interaction between player characters and NPCs.

Those are quite similar to the rules in Honor+Intrigue, though H+I adds a kind of persuasion hit points. Also this is pretty similar to how I run games like Runequest and Call of Cthulhu that have skills for fast talk, debate, and persuasion.

QuoteYes, I utterly, completely loathe and despise rules for things like "fast talk" or "diplomacy" or "negotiation" or "bluff."

There is no accounting for taste. I find they work just fine with reasonable, interesting players who want to simulate a character who is not them and with a reasonably talented and interested GM. For those situations persuasion skills are a feature, not a bug.

QuoteYou may note that this does not coddle or handhold players who want to play well spoken or glib characters but are not that way themselves.  This is a feature, not a bug.

For some styles of play it is a feature. As Greentongue mentioned, for people wanting to play a character who is substantially different than are they the style you mention is frequently a bug.

QuotePeople should learn to play, not whine that the game is too hard.

Grow the fuck up already. People should recognize that other people like some things they don't, not whine about how anything other than avatar* play is wrong.

* A style of play where the character is in one or more senses simply an avatar of the player, in this case, in the sense that the persuasion and tactical abilities of the character can't exceed that of the player.

Quote from: Bren;844713Grow the fuck up already.

No.  You can't make me, you can't make me, you can't make me.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844746No.  You can't make me, you can't make me, you can't make me.

Glad to see you took that in the spirit I intended it.

Quote from: Bren;844755

Glad to see you took that in the spirit I intended it.

Sometimes this old fart gets cranky for any reason from existential sorrow to lack of fiber.  I' d rather get told to stop being a dick then reported for " threadcrapping."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844761I' d rather get told to stop being a dick then reported for " threadcrapping."

Some may call it "threadcrapping"
Others may say, "It is a pale of dung and none may abide the odor thereof."
Still others will say "It promotes growth and is very powerful."

While it may not promote growth, it does promote thought even if that thought is to question WHY??

Sometimes it can get boring when the results are always what you expect.
Having the option to make a roll that everyone can accept the results of is helpful.
Less antagonism with the GM if it is the results of fickle fate.

Less of a concern with established players and GM of course.
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Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844761Sometimes this old fart gets cranky for any reason from existential sorrow to lack of fiber.  I' d rather get told to stop being a dick then reported for " threadcrapping."

What is this "fiber" you're talking about:)?
I think I'm getting it now. Surely you meant "beer", right;)?

As my brother says, "Rhinelander, the beer with fiber!"

This is not necessarily a good thing...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844761Sometimes this old fart gets cranky for any reason from existential sorrow to lack of fiber.  I' d rather get told to stop being a dick then reported for " threadcrapping."

In my view, reporting is not what it is cracked up to be. The vast majority of the reportage seems like the actions of a couple of 7 years olds kids in the back seat of a station wagon half-way through a 3-day drive to somewhere. I'm glad this site doesn't focus on reporting as a group activity.

Quote from: AsenRG;844868What is this "fiber" you're talking about:)?
I think I'm getting it now. Surely you meant "beer", right;)?

Round the turn of the century when I was younger, thinner, and ran a lot we referred to drinking beer as carbo loading. Which is an important aspect of marathon training.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844555This whole thing can be completed very simply by rolling on an NPC reaction table.

2-5 negative reaction
6-8 uncertain
9-12 positive reaction

Once the initial NPC reaction is determined the conversation proceeds through roleplaying.  Major changes in the conversation (insults, complements, payments, etc) call for another roll with an appropriate bonus or penalty.  Note that you do not roll after every damn sentence.

That's all the rules you need for ANY interaction between player characters and NPCs.

Yes, I utterly, completely loathe and despise rules for things like "fast talk" or "diplomacy" or "negotiation" or "bluff."

And this rule applies for far more than just talking.  If you want to make some sarcastic quip to aggravate your opponent into making a foolish attack, just roll above, accounting for the quality of the quip.

You may note that this does not coddle or handhold players who want to play well spoken or glib characters but are not that way themselves.  This is a feature, not a bug.  Diplomacy does not coddle players who are not good at negotiation and intrigue, neither should you.

People should learn to play, not whine that the game is too hard.

Yes, this is what I've been doing for all social framework for quite a while now!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844890As my brother says, "Rhinelander, the beer with fiber!"

This is not necessarily a good thing...

This sounds like an interesting brew:).

Quote from: Bren;844923Round the turn of the century when I was younger, thinner, and ran a lot we referred to drinking beer as carbo loading. Which is an important aspect of marathon training.

If people knew how much beer you'd need to drink to run a marathon, marathons would be more popular.
Because beer can't even get more popular than it already is;).